Transcription ****Please forgive any and all transcription errors as this was transcribed by Otter.ai.**** [intro music] Shark 0:16 Welcome back and thank you for joining A Shark's Perspective. I am Kenneth "Shark" Kinney, your host and Chief Shark Officer. First, let me tell you about two amazing sponsors who make this show possible. I'm rather particular shark and I only work with the best. First of all, let's talk inbound. I've worked with the great team at Invoca for several years now from marketing to sales and commerce to CX, Invoca is active conversation intelligence platform enables revenue teams to create better buying experiences drive more leads, and increase revenue. trusted by top brands like Dish Network, Mayo Clinic, Mutual of Omaha, Pods and SunTrust, Gregg and the Invoca team are doing some amazing work in turning conversational data into automated action to enhance digital touchpoints in human interaction. Secondly, let's talk outbound. I've known and worked with AC and team at Drips for years. Take a look at Drips, the founders of conversational texting where they use conversational AI to help you reach customers where they're most responsive and that's on their phones. And working with major brands like Three Day Blinds, Liberty Mutual Credit Repair, and Gaines Co, Drips is leading the way for some of the biggest brands in the world to improve engagement rates and outcomes for their prospects and customers. Thank you to Invoca and Drips. And now back to the show. Professional speakers were affected badly by the pandemic lots of income went away for me to but how do you reemerge as a speaker in an industry that's been hit hard with new players in many positions, topics and audiences continue to change there's a need to connect with people differently. And again, post pandemic and revenue streams have to diversify greatly for many who relied on one stream. It's as much of a lesson on being a solopreneur and entrepreneur as it is anything else. And sometimes a singer needs to speak. Tom singer is a professional business motivation speaker, emcee and master of ceremonies and host of several podcasts including speaker nomics from the National Speakers Association. And on this episode, we'll discuss the speaking events industries developing multiple streams of income as an individual having legitimate experience and success in your topic, along with being good on stage changing audiences how we connect with people in this virtual world, Stratton Ziggler. And Robbins, what you hear when they say great speech, three tips on being a great speaker, the kind of bread God sent to Tom and a lot, lot more. So let's tune into Professor speaker nomics, if you will, with a shark who also loves the income he earns from serving an audience from the stage when this episode of A Shark's Perspective. Tom, thank you so much for joining us today on a shark's perspective. Tell us a little bit about your career story in your background as a professional speaker. Thom Singer 2:50 Wow. It's a long eclectic story. So I'll give you the short version. I've been working as a professional speaker for 12 years, until March of 2020. It was the only source of income that I had for 11 years. And it was, you know, I built a lifestyle business, it was a lot of fun, I get to travel around the country, and speak to a lot of associations. And some companies mostly Association work. And I had sort of a hybrid where I could either be the opening keynote speaker and or the master of ceremonies. And my favorite thing to do with like, really adventurous clients because it was outside of the box. You think about this, it wasn't really that outside of the box. But clients were like, never thought of that is where I would be the opening keynote speaker. And then I'd stay the whole three days as the master of ceremonies. And that's when I could really rock a conference in a positive way. So that was my favorite thing to do. Shark 3:38 So what did they think of that? What do they say to you? And they saw you two days later? Thom Singer 3:42 Well, people in general, don't like to try things unless everybody else does it that way. So when you look at you know things, it's like, well, you have a keynote speaker, and that keynote speaker speaks, and they get offstage. And maybe they stay for the cocktail party, but they don't come back on stage the next day. So that was just weird. But in reality as the master of ceremonies, my topic would be about how you can connect better with people in a virtual world. And I would take this whole slant of let's make your conference, a human laboratory. And I would give people all kinds of ideas of how they could network better, both on site at the conference, but then also when they got back to their careers. And I called it being a conference catalyst, because I would change the way people would behave at the event. And some people would be like, well, I don't know that sounds different. And, you know, network sounds fluffy, networking, sounds fluffy. And other clients are like, I like it. It's different. Let's try it. And usually those are the ones who would bring me back. I have five clients who for three to four years in a row, I was their master of ceremonies, sometimes their keynoter again. Yeah. Shark 4:43 So if you heard but we have a little pandemic happened over the last. I did, it's been a couple of news shows, but were you starting look at your speaking career now go forward. I mean, cuz you've been an NSA speaker. You're well known on the circuit. It's how we connected but the look Forward is much different than what we've gone through. Thom Singer 5:03 So you know, it's interesting, there's a lot of people out there who have just rocked it. During the pandemic, they've continued to speak, doing a lot of virtual stuff, as things are opening up, they're getting booked solid for next fall. There's some people who everything just fell off, and they stuck their head in the ground. And then some people are in the middle. And I fall somewhere into the middle. I'm really transparent about it. I did not like work myself silly I would have liked to have, but I didn't just you know, I, I don't know if it was me or my topic or what, but I was not working constantly, virtually. So I liked the virtual stuff. I was actually good at it. People who hired me were like, wow, that was the best virtual presentation we've had. But it didn't really gel. And I think part of it was, you know, my topic. It's like, everybody was having to social distance. It's like, well, what are we going to tell them? You know, everybody kind of ignored connecting with people. As it comes back, I'm starting to get booked for the fall and for 2022. But I'm not seeing a big, big overall jump back. And I talked to a lot of other speakers who aren't also. So I think that the the framework of the way we're booked, who gets booked, and also the distance, I used to get booked six to nine months out. And I think a lot of my clients are in a holding pattern. You know, like, right now, people are talking to me about July. And so that's only you know, what, three months out. So I think that the landscape has changed a little bit. I also think that there's just not as many events happening yet. I think, come 2023 it's gonna blow open. And it's gonna be a lot of fun. But I think people are still holding back. And while we're seeing some in person and hybrid events happening, I just don't think we're seeing as many as there was. So I think there's there's too much competition right now for the amount of events. Yeah, Shark 6:44 well, in 2020. I mean, I was booking things six to nine months out, and then late fall, it was, can you do something next week? And that's been sort of a weird thing that has not, I don't know, if it's necessarily continued into 2021. But everybody's on hold. I'm not having the same positive conversations that are next week or six months out, everybody's still on hold. But how do you think the role of a speaker will necessarily change over the near to mid term? Is it the type of content? Is it location? How do you sort of look at where your position is, as a speaker is in the marketplace? You know, Thom Singer 7:21 I don't I don't think that we see trends yet. I think a lot of people like to say they see trends, but I think I think it's still the Wild Wild West. I think as we come back, I think that I think we're gonna have a lot more regional events. And I think that they're going to look for, you know, some people I, you know, the people who are booking me or people who know me, I'm finding that a lot of clients are trying to go with the safe choice, while our audience knows this person likes this person. We had him a few years ago. So I think things are just different for a while. I don't I don't necessarily know what that means. And and, you know, I think there's a lot of people in our industry who come on shows like this, and, you know, fake it till they make it act like everything's great, and they totally see the path. And maybe they do maybe I'm being hypercritical, but I just don't i don't see the answer about this is what our industry looks like for that short to near term. So, you know, that being said, I love the business, I'm not going anywhere, I'm going to continue to pursue the business. I think that as we open up my topic about how do we connect with people in this, you know, overly virtualized world, getting back to your human connection, I think the topic is going to be real strong. I started my business in 2008, during the recession, and the topic was a really hot topic, because you know, all opportunities in life come from people. And, you know, during the recession, a lot of people were laid off, they were worried about being laid off, industries were hurting. And so people really went back to basics. And I think that that's going to be what we're going to see coming forward is a lot of people going back to what blocking and tackling do I need to do for my sales for my career for my life? And so, you know, I'm hoping that I can just position myself to be one of those answers. Who can be an interesting speaker who can encourage people to take action? Sure. Well, I Shark 8:59 know tactically, there's a lot of things, obviously to differentiate us, whether we're speaking on stage or virtually, but as a whole, collectively, what do you think it takes to be a really good business motivational speaker? Thom Singer 9:11 You know, I think the one thing is it takes experience. I think from the outside looking in the speaking business looks like one thing, and after you've worked in it for a decade, you're all Oh, this is the way people make decisions. These are the topics that people tend to go to, this is how people buy, and you don't see it from the outside. So I think experience and longevity goes a long way. I think the other thing is you've got to really realize that audiences are changing. They're getting younger, they're more diverse. They don't they don't put up with any BS. You know, if you say something, and somebody disagrees, they're gonna call you out on it. 15 years ago, I don't think we saw that as much. So I think that you know, you need to be prepared to be able to stand your ground just because somebody calls you out. doesn't mean they're right. I think that people want speakers to be more conversational. I think that that Sage from this Age of 20 years ago, somebody comes out, they've written a best selling book and everybody goes, Oh, we're so lucky. She's so brilliant. I think those days have passed. I think people like being educated by peers, I think we see that in the way, people are educating inside companies inside universities, I think having more discussion. So while when you're doing a keynote with 2000, people, you know, you can't necessarily be as interactive as you can, when you're with 12. I think finding ways to let people in the audience feel that they're included, whether that's through using digital tools, whether it's through breaking people up into small groups, I also think that speakers in this changing world need to realize that it's more than just an hour, you're not just showing up speaking, getting in a limo and going to the airport, I think the clients and the audience expect you to be engaged with them before, during and after the conference. So I think as a speaker, you have to be looking for ways, you know, for how can you provide value all along for ages, I've always provided a video for my clients in advance talking about what I'm going to do on the stage and how we're going to do it, how we're going to impact the the event. And now I think that's mandatory. I don't think you can just show up if you're not famous, you know, and expect people just to buy into you, I think you need to help prep that audience of who you are what you're going to talk about before, during and after. Shark 11:21 Were you someone who scripted everything in your speech, or did you, Scott Stratton it and you know, go a lot. Thom Singer 11:29 So I do not script everything. In fact, my my motto for both being a podcaster and being a speaker is conversations don't have scripts. So I know where I'm going to go. And I have a PowerPoint that keeps me you know, going through it a certain thing. But I'm very open to going off on a whim. If something happens to me in the lobby that morning, and I meet somebody at the you know, location, and we have a conversation with their permission, I might open the whole speech saying this morning, I met Becky. And she and I had this conversation and it changed everything I was gonna say today. And I'll go down another path. I was speaking one time and the power went out. So I lost my PowerPoint. And I just kept going now It wasn't the same speech that was planned because I didn't have the the visual clues coming along. But that's because even without the visual clues, I knew the destination of where I was going to land that plane. So even without the PowerPoint, I just was able to talk and I turned to the audience for more feedback. Shark 12:28 You mentioned you know, catering a little bit more, or maybe acknowledging more rather's better way of saying it, looking at younger audiences and how the demographics are changing. How much of the change in your own speaking style has been the type of content, the type of words you use, versus necessarily the delivery? And that's always sort of a content versus delivery question we could ask 10 years from now, but I'm curious how that impacts what you're doing. Thom Singer 12:54 So my delivery style is going to be the same no matter what I'm doing. So if you have me here on your podcast, you're getting me the best compliment I ever received was right before the pandemic, I spoke at a conference for in the mortgage industry. There were 900 people in the audience, they were the top people around the country for this company. And coincidentally, unbeknownst to me, someone I went to college with was in the audience. And he basically said, Wow, you're the same person on stage as you would have been at a frat party 30 years 35 years ago. So to me, the biggest compliment is that my personality is part of my, you know, the biggest part of my delivery style. Now, not everyone's gonna like my personality, and that's totally fine. Fortunately, over 12 years, most, you know, many more people do than don't. So it's worked out. However, I think that we have to remember that the stories that we tell, and the examples that we use, aren't universal in the diverse world that we live in. And so I think that we have to choose those stories, not so much every single word. But you know, I recently saw a speaker who is my age, and I'm in my mid 50s. And her example was The Brady Bunch. And I literally was like, how many people in this room really know what that is? Yeah, they've made movies and there's, you know, classic tv.com and things like that. But, you know, if you're if you're referencing, you know, Alice from the Brady Bunch, I don't know that everybody in a younger audience is going to naturally do that. Or I saw another speaker one time, you know, and he referenced how much he likes crossover television. And my first thought, and I was glad my first thought was, like, you know, these these shows that they have like Chicago PD and Chicago hospital or whatever it is. And then sometimes they have episodes where the actors crossover. Right, right. But his example was the bionic woman and the $6 million, man. Wow. And I literally was like, No, no, no, no, no, no, because I have children who are 19 and 24. And they would have no idea what those are. So I think we have to be thinking very clearly, to be Universal when it comes to ages of people in the audience, in the stories that we tell, Shark 15:07 I only referenced Stranger Things anymore, and some Seinfeld, because I still don't understand why Seinfeld was always a top hit on digital channels 25 years later, but Stranger Things adds enough nostalgia it with a lot of things they do. And I don't have to reference Sam, the butcher or Lee Majors. Thom Singer 15:26 Well, the interesting thing about Stranger Things and by the way, I watched all the seasons. I liked it. Yeah. But there's a lot of people who haven't It was not as widespread is something so while yes, some people might know who it is, it also i don't think has the the widespread viewership that things do. So we have to be aware of all of those things as we speak. And, and sometimes people can come along with the right if you give enough example of what it was. And sometimes you leave people behind. So I think we have to, you know, really get into this world where we're, you know, 100%, behind this whole idea of being inclusive of everyone is in our audience. And that's a great points. That's a big task. Shark 16:05 It's very much so So you mentioned something earlier, I want to kind of dive back into that you learned how much of the Do you think today's speaker that is successful is because they are a successful speaker on stage or virtually versus successful from a business standpoint. And I know those intermingle and but really, I think understanding the business of speaking versus understanding the theatrical that go up on stage, and which has helped you more. Thom Singer 16:31 So in the 12 years that I've been in this business, and the five years before it, that I was studying the business, so let's call it 17 years, there's always this pendulum that kind of swings between your ability and style, as a speaker, and your content and research and experience behind it. And here's my take, I don't think this is an either or world, I think you have to have legitimate experience and success in the area of your topic. And I think you have to marry that with being real good on stage, I was at a conference one time, and I just couldn't stand it, I had to walk out the speaker was just the most dry, boring person. Now I would never say anything to the meeting planner. But other people did. And I knew the meeting planner, people came up and said how horrible it was. And she was offended. Because she said, Well, he's the smartest person in our industry. So we were lucky to have him here. And even though he was super smart, he was horrible to listen to. And, you know, they were saying well, but smart Trump's style on stage. I disagree. But I also don't think that style, Trump's brilliance, I think that we don't have to settle for either or so I think that you have to have experience and competency in your topic area. And then I think you have to learn how to weave a story on the stage. And if you think one is more important than the other, I don't think you're going to have longevity in this business, because there is sort of a pendulum. Shark 17:58 So let's talk a little bit about how you position yourself as a speaker, including coming out of the pandemic. One of the things that I think we briefly have touched on this before, and it's something I noticed, in the first part of 2021, how many people in the industry had either gotten out of the event business speakers that had left the business to take I say normal ish jobs. But really, when you think about reemerging, if you will, there's a lot of the pieces of the puzzle that are no longer there. Or that you may have thought were there in previous years, because the event business got hit so badly. So have you found that to be a challenge at all, as you sort of re you know, rework yourself into 2021 and beyond? Thom Singer 18:41 Yeah, a lot of my best clients have gone away from being meeting planners, their their associations downsize from a team of seven to one. Yeah, exactly. My contacts are gone. So in a lot of aspect, you know, I'm kind of starting over with my network in the meetings business. And so, you know, part of it is just being visible, you know, trying to make sure that there's people who will refer me, but I've found that if I look back over 12 years, removing the last year, I would say almost all with a few exceptions, of my business has come from people who have seen me speak or referred by someone who had seen me speak. So you know, there's sort of the old adage in the business that, you know, you go out and you speak for free a lot. And if you're good people will turn that around. So, you know, I'm willing to start over fresh. I just talked to a couple of rotary clubs in my area, you know, and I said, you know, virtually or in person, you know, sure I'll come speak to you. I'm writing new content because the world has changed. I mean, I talk to people about how do you connect with people, but that's changed after people have been socially distanced for a year. How do you get them to socially tight when the world opens up, and in some places, the world's not opening up I have clients in Canada, they've just gone into stay at home orders again. And you know, meanwhile, I live in Texas. where some people are pretending there never has been a pandemic, I was out the other night, and I walked by all the bars where the 30 somethings go, and they were packed, and people were dancing and, you know, indoor and outdoor. And it was like, Oh, I don't know that we're ready for like 2000 people in a bar. But, you know, they're there they were. So I think that, you know, I think that my topic of how do we really, really engage with people has changed. So I've gone out, I got a certification, you know, so that I could bring some other content into what I'm speaking about, that's highly relevant in today's world. I also have started other offerings beyond just being a speaker, I used to have one form of income. Now I'm doing several different things, because, you know, I still have to pay the mortgage. And I have a daughter at an Ivy League college, and they still want tuition, go figure, Shark 20:49 and nerve of those guys. Thom Singer 20:51 Well, I know it's like, it's like, you know, it's just like going to University of Phoenix, but for $80,000 a year. Exactly. Shark 20:56 If you think of speakers that haven't been doing it a decade, plus, like you, there's a lot of advice out there, obviously, for speakers today, wait way too much on clubhouse. But what do you think the assets are that people need to start pulling together early on to position themselves as that expert, that person that they want to have come speak at their event? Thom Singer 21:20 Well, I think number one, is when you when you say assets, I mean, I think you think you're talking about like your website, and Shark 21:26 yeah, that and that your personal brand and everything else. I we if we were to reinvent or recreate Tom singer 1020 years ago, what would be the things that you've learned to pull together to make you a more successful speaker in this business early on. Thom Singer 21:41 So I think you have to have a decent website and a decent video, I don't think you have to spend 10s and 10s of 1000s of dollars to do it. Because when I talk to meeting planners about who and why they hire, they just want to make sure that you you've crossed over that path that that level of sort of good enough. So I think that's part of it, I think that you have to have a body of work that shows that, you know, you're, you know, at least some level of an expert in what you're talking about. And then more important than anything, I think you have to be good on stage one problem. And this was said to me, 12 years ago, when I first got into the business, I had a mentor who said to me, Tom, what do you want people to say to you when you walk off the stage? And I said, I want them to say it was a great speech? And he said, No, you don't? And I'm like, Yeah, Yeah, I do. I have an ego, I want them to say that was the best speech of the conference. You know, I want them to say I was good. And he goes, here's the problem. We live in a very polite society. So um, imagine for a minute that you're at a conference and the speaker is highly mediocre. Like you're wondering, did this person need an hour or was 20 minutes enough? And at the end of the hour, when they say in conclusion, you think, Kath, thank God, it's about right. Now, later that afternoon, you're at the cocktail party, and you end up in the corner, and it's just you and the speaker, and you see her or him. And you know, they're the speaker, and they know that you know that they were the speaker, what do you say to them? No one else is around, you look them in the eye. And what do you say? You say, great speech. And I told that story that someone wants, and they're like, No, I'm heavily honest. I would never say great speech, unless it was a great speech. And I say, so what would you say? And they go, I would find that the part of their speech that I like them, I would tell them, I love that part about your sister. And I'm like, great, you know what the speaker just heard you say, great speech. So the person who said this to me 12 years ago, I'm like, Well, what do I want? If I don't want them to say I'm good? He said, Because here's the thing. All speakers hear from the audience, that that was a great speech, even if they're highly mediocre. He said, You want them to come up to you and say, what else can you do for me? Or a derivative of it? And his example of a derivative of what else can you do for me was, do you do coaching? Do you have a book I can buy? nowadays? It would be Do you have a podcast, you know, something of how they can get more of you. They can take something home, they can continue to learn from you. Because nobody says that to somebody they thought sucked. So if you're hearing people saying, Do you do coaching, can I buy you a cup of coffee to pick your brain? Anything that translates to what else can you do for me, then, you know, you're good on stage. And I took that to heart. And so anytime someone said, great speech, I was gracious. And I said, Thank you. But I really paid attention when they asked for more somehow. Because if if you're good enough, where they say, what else can you do for me? You're going to get spin off business. And as I said, All my business for 11 years came from people who saw me speak, or people who referred me to other people. Shark 24:39 How do you think you're changing the way you're marketing yourself in this field to be the next speaker? Is it that you're spending an overly an ordinate amount of time on social media now to promote yourself that you may not have pre pandemic or is there something you've done amazingly different with your speaker demo reel or your website? What do you sort of even if it's not you just people you either mentor or see others that are doing successfully? What do you think they're doing to position themselves differently from a marketing standpoint? Thom Singer 25:09 Well, if I knew the answer to that, I'd be doing it sure I'd be the person who was knocking it out of the park, I will tell you that I don't think social media carries the power that it used to, I think that there's too much noise there too much. Look at me, there's too much guru class of people kind of self appointing how great they are. And I think what's happening is some of them can't deliver. So I think that finding someone on social media, I think people are a little bit more skeptical than they might have been seven or eight years ago. So I think that it's going back for me to that personal relationships, I'm doubling down on going back to, you know, building, building trust with the people I already know, and building trust with the people I'm meeting along the way, and really finding ways to get back into that referrals. Because when I go back and look at all of my business, almost all of it comes from referrals. And so I have to go back to people who've seen me speak, and you know, hope that they still remember me, and that they're willing to give me a shot going forward. So I'm going back to the pure basics of someone who's just starting a speaking career. And I'm really trying to just start from square one, and recreate where I can. But at the same time, you know, bringing the fact that I've given over 1000 professional speeches over 12 years plus 17 years, because I was doing it part time before that. And, you know, hoping that I can, you know, weave my content into a way where people are going to go, Oh, yeah, that's the guy, we need to have an art conference so that when they see me speak there, you know, they'll pluck me out and refer me forward. Shark 26:40 So speaking of social media, how do you think clubhouse is either helping you with your speaking career and staying omnipresent? Or is it sucking up too much of your time? Or? Or where do you see clubhouse at least for speakers? Thom Singer 26:55 So I've been saying for a long time, and I think maybe it's starting to wane? I'm not sure yet. But I've been saying since December, that clubhouse has put the social back in social media, I would say I have either made from scratch or enhanced a lot of relationships that are going to help me in my business down the road. I've met people like you, I get a lot of referrals to speak from other speakers. Now there's some people who say I never get referrals from other speakers. Well, I asked how many of you give it you know, it's I think it's a, it's not even that you gave it to that person. It's that other speakers know that you give, they want to give to you because they want to get on your radar screen. So I get a lot of business from other speakers who refer me into business. So clubhouse has allowed me to make new relationships with people in the industry. Same thing in the podcasting industry, I get a lot of speaking opportunities from spin offs from I've done my podcast, my main podcast for six years. And I've done one that I'm the paid host for for one for a couple of years. And that one led to me emceeing conferences in the manufacturing industry. And now I host to others. I host a sales tech podcast. And I host the National Speakers associations, Speaker nomics podcast, and so on through the podcast world. I'm building relationships, that traditionally pre pandemic I saw leading to business, so I'm doubling down on the relationships, I'm building through podcasting, and sort of a weird subset of podcasting, I would put clubhouse into that. So I'm doubling down on the relationships, but not so much that being on the app itself helps. It's building the relationships off the app with people I met on the app. Shark 28:37 Do you find that it's really important for a speaker today to spend more time on coaching or to be an author or to be a social media guru? Is there any one thing that you think helps elevate speakers to get better speaking gigs? Thom Singer 28:52 You know, I think it's different for everybody, we could line up 10 successful schools true. And you're gonna find, you know, 10 very different, very different people who do it. So I have one friend, who swears that having a kick ass video for his demo reel is why he gets his business. I have another friend who works just as much who has an okay, Speaker video. And that person says it's because they're constantly cold calling writing articles touching base with people in their database, that it's the constant touch that leads them to that I know somebody else who is sort of a pseudo celebrity. And that's what gets them their business. So the answer to your question is all of the above and none of the above? Shark 29:37 Yeah, it's just really interesting, because if you look at like Brian fans, oh, he'll tell you, he doesn't have a speaker reel. And he doesn't have a book. But he's on social media nonstop. Other people will swear you've got to have a book. And so I think a lot of people with limited amount of time, are trying to figure out which one to do. And the advice they get can be so polarizing in one direction or another that it becomes hard To navigate into becoming a good speaker, because it's not just a topic, so, Thom Singer 30:04 so I've written several books, and a couple of them sold pretty well my first two books each sold over 15 and 25,000 copies, my subsequent books didn't sell nearly as many. But I had some early success 1215 years ago with my writing, and when I would speak, people would line up and they would buy my book. Now pre write pre pandemic, if I would speak and I would bring books with me to sell very few people did because I think society we've changed, people aren't in the use of buy the book, so they can take part of the speaker home with them. So if you, if you touch their heart or their soul, they would want to buy your book to take it, take it home with them. So that was the big deal. Even in places where you'd speak for free, and the only way you'd make money was selling books. People were like, Oh, well, yeah, I know, you volunteered for our association, I'll give you $20 for the book. Now they don't as much. So now, I don't even bring books with me to sell if I was to go live in person. But I talk up my podcast, depending on what type of audience I'm speaking to, I have a variety of them I can send them towards. But I talk about the podcast, people are really into that right now. In a couple of years, nobody might care that you have a podcast, it's kind of like, you know, if you can think back 15 plus years ago, 18 years ago, blogging was a really big deal. And I was an early adopter of blogging, and it got me a lot of speaking business. I still write for my blog, nobody reads my blog. Now. You know, it's like, it used to be a thing. And it used to be, you know, I got really good SEO from blogging. Now it's not so things change along the way. So you know, I don't think you have to have a book, I think having a book is great. self published is okay, major publisher is better. I think having a podcast right now is somewhat interesting, appearing on other people's podcast so that your name is a name they've heard of that's the other thing is when I get referred into an association, if the meeting planner says, oh, I've heard of him, that gets me a call. If they get referred to them, and they've never heard of me later, they're like, Tim swinger? Thom Singer 31:57 What was that name? Thom Singer 31:58 They don't remember. So, you know, part of it is is that, you know, it's it's building a reputation goes a really long way. But there's probably 100 ways you can build a reputation. Shark 32:08 How do you look at niching and narrowing that topic? You talk a lot about networking, and connecting and things like that, of course, that can flow into any industry any vertical, it makes sense. I think a lot of advice that I hear a lot of people give, continues to drill down further and further and further. And it makes me wonder, are there three gigs that they're ultimately perfectly qualified for? And then no others? Or do they need to broaden their topic and just be really good at doing something like leadership? I mean, leadership still, number one, you don't, but you can get a good leadership speaker can speak in almost any vertical. How do you look at that with that? niching your topic? Well, again, Thom Singer 32:48 I'm going to be the worst guest you've ever had, because I'm going to give the same answer. Yes. And no. Yeah, I mean, the truth is, is I could line up speakers who are super broad, I speak on leadership, and they work 100 times a year. And I can bring in somebody who says, I talk about leadership for us manufacturing companies, okay, they work 100 times a year. So part of it has to do with how are you going to market it? What are you going to do with it, what works for you. And I think that, you know, if it's working for you, great, if it's not working for you change it up. So that's why as we come out of the pandemic, you know, I'm shaking some things up and trying new things, throwing a little spaghetti at the wall, because I do believe the world is changing, and the world has changed. And so I, you know, I'd be stupid to just say, Well, here's how I did it six years ago, because it's not, it's not the same world. And I'm not the same person. And I actually, you know, if you're, if you're smart, you're growing, and you're changing, and you're learning along the way, well, that changes everything. But there are certain topics that become hot, I think back in 2008 910 1112, my topic of connecting with people was super hot, then I watched it get a little less. My prediction is when we come out of the pandemic, it's going to be very hot again, because people have been, you know, away from those social situations. So my my hope, and my prediction is the topic of connecting and I'm seeing other people get into this topic, connecting with humans in a face to face type world, that topic is going to pop. And so the good news is I have a reputation in that topic. That being said, you know, for somebody else, you can't just go after a topic because it taught you know, diversity and inclusion is super hot topic right now. But if you're not an expert in it, you shouldn't label yourself as a diversity speaker. It's not fair to you or to your clients. So you know, you can't chase a topic you are an expert in what you're an expert in. And if you need to add to expertise, go out and learn it get a certification I did that. You know, go out and chase you know, Chase finding other ways to bring yourself up to speed. If you're going to add topic. Don't just call yourself an expert. You actually have to go learn something before you can do that. Shark 34:56 Thank you. best advice you ever heard to be Great speaker. Thom Singer 35:01 Um, wow. I mean, I don't even know there's so much. But I think that the more you speak, the better you're going to get. I talked to somebody early on, who said, What do you care if they pay you or not, you're new, you're going to be a lot better after you've given 300 speeches than you are after you've given 30 there was an article and speaker magazine, before I got started full time, and a woman named Roxanne Emmerich, who's kind of a legend in the business. She said that before you've given 300, professional level speeches, you're never going to be great. There's just too much to learn along the way. But after you've given 300, all of a sudden, things are gonna gel and you can handle whatever happens. And I took that to heart and I had an experience after I hit the 300 mark, where, you know, something went wrong. During the speech with the technology, everything kind of went awry. And I was totally able to handle it. And as the power came back in the hotel, I looked at the audience, I just kind of gave a mischievous smile. And I said, because the lights came back on in the ballroom, I said, you know, a great speaker illuminates their audience. And everybody laughed, every thought it was funny. And afterwards, a guy said to me, do you have a line in your mind for anything that can go wrong? And I said, No, I've never dreamed about giving a speech and having the power go out. I said, however, I've given enough speeches where I can read the room. And that's an experience thing. So I guess my, my advice is, if you want to be great, speak a lot. Because once you've given 1000, same thing with being a podcast, oh, yeah, I've done over 1000 somebody told me the other day, wow, you're really good interviewer. And I said, don't go listen to Episode One of my first podcast. Shark 36:37 So what's the worst advice you've ever got to be a great speaker that you sort of learned a hard lesson from wish you'd learned before you'd made a bad choice, Thom Singer 36:45 be really cautious of who is selling advice that you listen to. And I'm sure this goes for free advice, too. But there are a lot of people out there who are calling themselves speaker coaches. And there's a lot of people selling online courses, courses on how to make six figures a year as a speaker, a lot of them don't have the experience doing it. So if you're going to seek someone out for pick their brain free, or to pay them $10,000, to be your coach, do your homework on them first, make sure that they're legit, and that their personality and their business style of what they're teaching lines up with you because, you know, there's there's 10 different speaking businesses to I mean, the corporate business is different than the association business is different than college is different than high school is different than religious. So you can't just find a speaking business coach. So be very careful of the charlatans who are out there selling to speakers, I have a saying that in the last few years, it's become very clear that there's more money to be made selling to want to be speakers than there is being a speaker. So just there's some great coaches out there also. So just be super vigilant before you spend money or take advice from anybody. Shark 38:02 Amen to that. So best speaker you've ever seen in person? Thom Singer 38:10 Oh, God. The list is so long, you know, my, my my nepotism side of me wants to go to you know, some of my best friends. But, you know, I'm trying to think of who's not one of my best friends. I'm not going to be able to remember that person's name. You know, there's so many greats, but I'm gonna I'm gonna punt on this question. And just tell you that when you see a great speaker who moves you at the level of your soul, you know it? Shark 38:38 Yeah. And it was rare, and it's rare, very rare. Ziglar was one of those and everybody lined up to buy 10 bucks after him. The guy was talking about selling, but he can tell stories. Amazingly, Tony Robbins is the other? I don't know makes you cry when you go see the guy. Alright, barring a question that you would ask often on your own show, give us three tips to be a great speaker. Thom Singer 39:00 Number one, speak a lot, because you're going to get better from doing it. Number two, remember that I don't think you get into this business as a speaker unless you have a little bit of an ego. And sometimes a speaker will say, Oh, I have no ego. It's all about serving. I don't I don't think you choose this business. If you don't like being onstage, some people do. But most of us have the ego we like to get up and perform. But the older I get, the more I learned to leave the ego at the door and make it about the audience. So you know, so that'd be my second one. And I think the third tip to be a truly great speaker is to I don't know I just got two tips for you. I would say those two. I don't want to bullshit don't Oh, there's my answer. The third tip Don't bullshit people. Oh, good choice. Shark 39:48 Alright, Tom, what do you do for fun? Thom Singer 39:51 So you know, it's interesting, I kind of reinvented myself when I turned 50 I made a pledge on my 50th birthday that I was going to make age 50 to 75 the best years of My life. And there was a lot of times in my life where I mean, I had a great life before that, but I there were a lot of times where I didn't do things if I didn't think I'd be good at them. So starting five years ago, I just started saying yes to things, things that scared me. So I took up running and lost 30 pounds. And so I still run. Don't know that I like it. I wouldn't say do it for fun. But three years ago, I was in New York, and there's a speaker, his name is Drew tarvin. And he and I were new friends at the time. I said, hey, let's go, you know, have dinner. And he said, Oh, the night you're here, why don't you come to open mic night with me? And I was like, Oh, I'd love to watch. He's a professional comic and improv guy also. And I said, I'd love to watch you work on new material. And he said, That's not what I'm inviting you to do get up on stage and do a five minute set at the open mic night. And I'm like, Oh, no. Oh. But one of the things I teach is try new things. And Drew's like, don't you teach, try new things. I was like, dammit, I hate it when people throw my own content back at me. So I went in Greenwich Village withdrew on a Saturday night to an open mic night for about 40 people in the audience. And I did a five minute comedy said it was not great. But it also didn't suck horribly. And I liked it. And I realized it was way different than giving a speech. And so I made a pledge that I was going to do 100 open mic nights, and I was going to do it once a week for two years. And I got to about 93 when the pandemic hit two years later, almost every week in two years. And last night was my first night back out and I had so much fun I'd have to say that doing very bad stand up comedy is what I do for fun right now. Shark 41:32 Tom, I assist everybody. What is your favorite kind of shark and why? Thom Singer 41:37 You know, Thom Singer 41:38 I got to go with like a big oversized mechanical great white shark because I was in fifth grade. I was in fifth grade when jaws came out. And I remember my dad taking me and my two best friends to see jaws at like a nine o'clock movie. And I don't think I slept for two nights. But I would have to go I would have to go with a big mechanical 70s movie shark. Shark 42:00 Yeah, Bruce, the one that poisoned everybody's thinking about way sharks really are but is what it is so great, amazing movie. Well, Tom, it's a special time in the show. Are you ready for the five most interesting important questions that you're going to be asked today? Thom Singer 42:15 Yes. All right. Shark 42:15 Number one, as a speaker, you'll you'll realize the importance of this question, Hilton, or Marriott, Thom Singer 42:23 Marissa? Okay. Shark 42:25 Always know where somebody loyalty points lie. All right, number two, a lavalier or country man. Thom Singer 42:31 Lavalier. really true, man. I mean, I'll do it if it's whatever the client wants me to do, but a country man makes me feel like 1980s Madonna. Shark 42:40 Alright, number three, podcasting question. making waves at sea level or speaker nomics. And I know one of them has some economics but one's also your personal Thom Singer 42:52 shoot. You're making me choose between my children? My Sophie's Choice? My Yeah, Sophie's Choice. Um, right now, I'm gonna be honest, Speaker nomics has been a great project to work on, but great show, but making waves at sea level was originally called cool things entrepreneurs do. We're at 650 episodes and fence. Oh, that one's a close. That one's right there. It's Shark 43:14 hard to pick. Alright, number four. As a professional speaker, which social do you prefer? YouTube, or clubhouse? Thom Singer 43:21 clubhouse? Shark 43:23 Yeah. Number five. And the most important question that you're going to be asked today is a good good man in Texas can can answer this biscuits or cornbread, cornbread. Okay, goes without even Thom Singer 43:34 not even not even a question a great piece of cornbread with honey butter and honey on it. God sent that down. Shark 43:43 Great point. So Tom, where can people find out more about you? Hopefully hear you speak and definitely get to get them to listen to Speaker nomics or any of the other podcasts. Thom Singer 43:54 So you can find me at Tom singer calm, that's th o m s i n g er.com. And you can find links to just about everything I do. Right there. Awesome. Tom, thank Shark 44:04 you so much for being with us today on A Shark's Perspective. Thom Singer 44:07 Thank you. Shark 44:15 So there was my conversation with Tom singer, professional business motivation, speaker, emcee and master of ceremonies and host of several podcasts including speaker nomics from the National Speakers Association. Let's look at three key takeaways from our conversation with him. First, great points on universal language and how to think of becoming more inclusive audiences. It's very easy and all forms of content, different phrases. Were examples of things gone by, but not all audiences know of pop culture topics from 50 years ago, like the Brady Bunch or $6 million man, or even those of recent like Stranger Things, just because you may think it's current and cool. Try to at least see if you can include all of your audience and make sure that they can follow your story. Take a look at your speeches, your blogs, your posts, etc. Just take a look. Second, this Speaking of events industry change with a pandemic, many people left the industry for other types of jobs. A lot of people are having to start over now to reconnect and remarket themselves. Tom talks about his own plan and that includes relationships and some sound advice doubled down on personal relationships. That's his advice. And how could you ever disagree with that in whatever industry you're part of today, tomorrow or beyond? Third, best advice he heard about the speaking business. The more you speak, the better you get. Love it. And worse advice. be really cautious of who is selling advice that you listen to. And while there's so much bad advice out there from coaches with cool courses and advice, lots of charlatans, but many great ones out there who are legit and honest as well. Listen, it applies in any field, but just be cautious. Got a question? Send me an email to kenneth@asharksperspective.com. Thank you again for the privilege of your time. I'm so thankful to everybody who listens. And thank you to my amazing sponsors invoke interrupts let's keep changing and become better leaders. And I hope you'll join us on the next episode of A Shark's Perspective. [music]