Transcription ****Please forgive any and all transcription errors as this was transcribed by Otter.ai.**** [intro music] Shark 0:16 Welcome back and thank you for joining A Shark's Perspective. I am Kenneth "Shark" Kinney, your host and Chief Shark Officer. Let me tell you about two amazing sponsors that make this show possible. Let's talk first about inbound from marketing to sales and commerce to cx Invoca is active conversation intelligence platform enables revenue teams to create better buying experiences drive more leads and increase revenue to trusted by top brands like Dish Network Mayo Clinic mutual, Omaha and ADT. Greg and the Invoca team are doing some amazing work in turning conversational data into automated action to enhance digital touchpoints and human interaction. Next, let's talk about outbound. I hope that you'll take a look at Drips the founder of conversational texting where they use conversational AI to help you reach customers where they are most responsive, and that's on their phones. And working with major brands like three day blinds, liberty, mutual credit repair, and gain scope. My friend AC and the team at Drips are leading the way for some of the biggest brands in the world to improve engagement rates and outcomes for their prospects and customers. Thank you to invoke in dribs and now back to the show. So if you were to go out and evangelize your corporate ban, then how would you do it? What would you say especially if you work for a large brand like Microsoft? Would it be all about their ad platform or how you make products that are more accessible and inclusive for customers? There's a lot there there from AD platforms to Xbox to social networks and much more. What would you preach? JOHN Lee is the head of evangelism at Microsoft. And on this episode, we'll discuss brand evangelism, leveraging influencers when even the big brands need a human face. Why call everything being performance marketing, accessibility, customer experience inclusion, Bill Gates and Satya Nadella a good topic no one discusses at conferences when Ball State finally broke that losing streak, and a lot, lot more. So let's tune into a Microsoft preacher, if you will, with a shark whose sermon is better marketing and advertising on this episode of a sharks perspective. Shark 2:15 John, thank you so much for joining us today on A Shark's Perspective. We'll dive into your background at Microsoft a little bit further, but briefly, give us a minute on you and your background, your career story today. John Lee 2:24 Yeah. Well, Kenneth, thank you for having me. Hello, everybody. So i'm john Lee. Currently head of evangelism at Microsoft advertising. Oh, if we go back many, many moons ago, I went to college to teach music. That's a head scratcher. I still play music, play play piano, some guitar, some harmonica I sing. That's all fun. Yeah, no, I had to just, you know, a circuitous journey from there to where I'm at today, you know, I worked for movie theater chain was a manager there. And then I worked for a self publishing company. That's kind of where I started to dip my toes in PR and just baby steps into the world of marketing. But from there then was hired into hanapin marketing. And for those who don't know, hanapin marketing is where PPC hero.com was born, which spawned hero cough, and many other things. Add the rare pleasure of writing the very first blog post on PPC or comments my loan claim to fame in this world. But from there and went on, I worked with wordstream for a short time. And then with clicks marketing was co owner clicks marketing before coming to Microsoft. And so, you know, interesting journey, but you know, digital advertising, digital marketing, I'm in 15 years, and if nothing else makes me feel old. That number does. Shark 3:45 Good. So I know you threw the Digi Mark con conference where we both spoke. But tell me a little bit about your role as head of evangelism at Microsoft in how you also act as Speaker for them. Yeah, for sure. John Lee 3:57 Well, you know, evangelism, that's one of those fun tech terms. You know, it is this, it's being out and about talking about the brand talking about our products and features in the work that we're doing. Whether that's speaking during interviews, like this writing, I do a lot of writing, but my job also encompasses some other elements. So I manage a community of influencers and media individuals, and that's a that's a great way it's a considered a feedback loop. Right? I'm providing information but they're providing feedback. You know, we meet monthly and, you know, internally partnering with, you know, my direct peers in brand marketing, but across the entire marketing, organization, sales, etc. to think about how are we bringing these amazing features these amazing products to market and how we're going to talk about them with our clients and with the industry at large. So it's a multifaceted job. It's a big job, but I very much love it. Shark 4:58 go a little bit further into You're working with influencers? Because I think it's really interesting. I'm always curious to see as this Microsoft continues to evolve, how you have also evolved with influencers? Can I dive into a little bit of that role? John Lee 5:10 Yeah, for sure. Well, I'm in a rare position in that I've been able to see it from both sides. And so the influencer community that I manage once upon a time, I actually was a part of when I was still on the agency side and so but it being able to see it from both perspectives is pretty darn cool. But you know, how I think about it is, it's very much relationship building, right? I am a people person, I can talk to any much like you cannot read can talk to anybody about anything for as long as need be. And I love every second of that. So that's a big part of it is just basic communication. But these individuals, you know, the way things are set up, they consider me as their the lightning rod, right? If they've got a question, but what's going on, if they maybe they're going to be giving a presentation or writing an article? I'm the guy, right, that they're going to come to you and ask for, hey, you know, can we go a little bit deeper on this particular topic? Or do you have any, you know, just some slides, maybe that that would give me the perspective, I need to take that and talk about it. You know, that's, that's definitely. Again, I'm that guy, but within the context of our regular cadence of meetings, it like, like I was alluding to earlier, it's an opportunity for me to come to the table and, and talk through, okay, here's what maybe what you might have missed since we last talk, whether that's some content we published or feature that maybe wasn't a marquee feature, but still something that's important. But then I'm going deep into, Alright, here's the roadmap, and these folks are getting an early look, right? You know, weeks, months down down the line. Oftentimes, when appropriate, I'm bringing our product marketing managers bringing our engineers into that call to speak to the product, but most importantly, is to answer questions, right? So most of these folks, even our journalist, friends, they're part of this this group, then they understand this industry. And you know, they all have such wonderful perspective on what is happening, and they're able to ask the right questions. And so we are giving information, but we're also getting so much more. back. Yeah, that's what I love about it's, it's truly a feedback loop. And then, you know, honestly, a lot of these people I've been able to partner with on content, whether, you know, I'm inviting them to join me on a webinar or, you know, co opting some sort of a presentation, and that for me, it's just a red thread that that's fun. But it's also another way to we're all kind of helping each other, just, you know, improve, improve the industry, a large, Shark 7:42 Microsoft such a massive brand, though it's been around for decades now. It's been a powerhouse, both in b2b and b2c. What is the solution that influencers are helping Microsoft fill with a brand name that's so well known and respected and trusted as well? John Lee 7:58 So that's a really big question. But a good one. What I would say is that I personally, am blessed. I work for an organization, Microsoft advertising that is blessed to have the support of the, to your words, a massive corporation that is Microsoft behind us and supporting us, as any big corporation is, is made up of smaller units, and Microsoft advertising, you could think of us much like Canva. I mean, I think we're older than 10 years, we're definitely older than 10 years, but not by much. And so consider us a startup within the context of Big Bad Microsoft. So with that in mind, you know, we are also, you know, the underdog brand, to Google answer and just don't last name, drop them, right. I mean, when you think search, where the two football players Shark 8:53 say they're No, John Lee 8:54 no, no, no, we're not going down that road. But you know, we are the challenger brand, right? And so, yes, the power of Microsoft. But we still have an uphill battle, you know, an uphill climb to take here to bring our brand to market to bring our messaging to market, but most importantly, is to bring a very high quality product to market in LANMAN with our existing clients continue to grow that, but most importantly, is to find new ones. And so, while Yes, Microsoft, and that affords us a lot of opportunity. There's a lot of work that needs to be done. And so, no, we do have a sizable marketing team, that I'm super proud to be a part of, who we can only do so much. We can only reach so many people as individuals. And so now, being an evangelist, it puts a face to a brand you know, before me was Christie Olson, for those that know who she is. And even before her john gagnant, both of whom I consider good friends. You know, we get to sit In this seat and and take the heat sometimes take the fun stories, the good, you know, the good and the bad. But most importantly is to partner with people. And that's really a Microsoft mantra as well as Microsoft advertising mantra is we want to partner with our clients, partner with, again, individuals as in influencers, it could be, you know, tool providers, you name it, it's all about partnership. And so that's really the relationship that we're building there is, let's partner together, your feedback influencer is going to make our product better. And, you know, me giving you all this wonderful information that you can, you know, hopefully take and talk about blog about speak about is going to reach those customers, those clients that maybe I couldn't on my own. And so that's, you know, it's a symbiotic relationship. That true, I mean, multiple organizations within within Microsoft and other businesses rely heavily. Shark 10:57 Yeah, it's a great point, especially when you think of how large of a company is and how well known it is. You know, if Bill Gates takes a vacation, and they grab a photo, I mean, that becomes a national news story, more than some big massive Microsoft product launch, they can't get attention. So it's almost cannibalistic, when you achieve the level that he has. And he has been with the company and what two decades, right? Well, I mean, you know, Chairman, and all that. But he's not making the day to day decisions. Exactly. Talk a little bit about your role in speaking at conferences, which is again, how we met. John Lee 11:36 Yeah, so I've been, you know, I'll use the quote unquote, on the circuit phrase 2013 or so I had been blogging Well, before that, I think for like six years aggressively before that, sometimes multiple times a week, much to my detriment and mental health. But wink wink told my copywriter people out there, but started speaking around 2013 and so not a new thing for me, and for anybody that has seen me presents, anybody that just knows me. I, I am me. Like, when you get john, you get john, whether I'm on stage, whether I'm talking to you, like right now with you, Kenneth, talking one on one, in a meeting with with my peers and teammates. I'm me. So that means I'm a little goofy. I know a little bit about a lot of things. And, you know, I'm quick on my feet. And all of those skills have. Wow, I mean, it's, it's like a superpower. Right? I can just show up with some knowledge. But most importantly, be able to, you know, stitch together a story, get a couple of smiles, if I get a laugh, that's a win for me. But most importantly, is I've landed a few points, and I'm getting questions that I'm like, yep, they listened. They heard. And they're processing and so they're asking the right questions, that's a win, win win, I guess. For me, I love that. And, and, you know, I miss the in person, part of it, the networking and all of that, that goes with it. But speaking is truly a treat. And so, I've I've spoken on a lot of things. All the nuts and bolts of paid search. I've not actually presented on anything in the SEO world, even though I did SEO for a few years a while ago. But you know, it's ranged everything from like I said that, like, let's get in there, this is how you do this piece by piece by piece to something a little more abstract for a while when I still was, was a co owner of my agency was actually doing presentations on, like, here's how to think about working with your clients and like speaking to agency issues, and that was actually fun. It was a nice break from talking about, you know, bids and keywords and ads and everything else. But, you know, in my time at Microsoft, you know, before this role I was in learning and development. And so I kind of was presenting often in facilitating training and just, you know, helping be the the brain and sometimes the voice by an online training is a different form of presentation. And so it's something that's, I don't know, it's carried carried with me all along. And definitely help me get into this role for sure. Shark 14:22 Let's talk a little bit further about being an advertising in particular, because again, started in your role with PPC hero, and where you were also helping evangelize a lot of the Microsoft advertising. Where do you see being standing up against the 800 pound gorilla, if you will? Sure, because it's still a good platform for advertising. John Lee 14:44 Well, so I'll start by just providing a little bit of color commentary or context to say, we have Microsoft advertising, which is an ad platform for search. Also native And we also have, you know, our retail arm in promote IQ, or P IQ as we call it internally, right? Which, again, Shark 15:09 calling all of these being by accident, that's fine. Oh, forgive me. I know the difference. It's just it's a bad habit. John Lee 15:16 Yeah, no, but it's but it's good, right? Because it this is actually it's a great learning moment for anybody that's listening to say, like, we've got the umbrella of Microsoft advertising, and that's the ad platform. And then you have been the search engine, which is, like its own thing, and is driving a lot of innovation in AI and machine learning for Microsoft, right? It is a massive thing. Right? It is more than just what you see on bing.com. And so there's a relationship there. But what I would say is, it's more than just being calm when you think about consumer experience. So Microsoft, as we've already talked about, is this big thing. That includes windows, that includes the Edge browser. And for those that haven't been paying attention to tech news, the Edge browser is on the move, buddy. It's a good thing. There's been partnership with Google using the chromium engine, but man, that browser is amazing, new features launching, well, at least for me, I'm on the dev version. But I like every week by new features coming out, you're hot and heavy, that plus windows plus ecosystem, when you think about everything that is Microsoft, we bring a lot to the story. But it doesn't end there. There's also our deep partnerships. So on the search side, yes, it is Bing, but it is also Yahoo and AOL. And then you can go a step deeper to DuckDuckGo. And, you know, forums and Wall Street Journal and a whole host of well known entities where they have search, we are providing that for them in our ads being served in conjunction. So there's a massive ecosystem. And that's, as we continue to build that, plus everything that's happening on negative or negative, but native advertising, which is it's, I mean, we could talk for an hour just on that, but those two pieces alone, that is where we see growth and how we compete in the marketplace, Shark 17:13 right. So then let me rephrase this, how should a marketer, especially a performance marketer, look at Microsoft advertising, when building out their budgets and expectations, because again, having been on the brand side, I always saw the power in advertising on Microsoft, because it gave me solid conversions. It was always 10%. And it got discounted, because most people would spend their 90% of their money on Google. But a solid 10%, I could always depend on with Microsoft, and it was never getting the attention from even a lot of the people above. And it's still a really important one. But you know, when you see it at conferences most of the time, and it's I used to joke with actually an SEO friend of mine that I was going to do a presentation on the power of Microsoft advertising, because everybody else was running towards the Google presentations. But they were all the same. And it was great and all and so when I look at it, compared to its competitors, it's, it has a good place that I think a lot of marketers, especially performance marketers, the smart ones know about it? That's right, but not all of them use it enough. John Lee 18:26 So I'll start off start my answer with this. And that is I empathize with, you know, account managers at agencies and folks that are in house in in the budget decision makers, because share of wallet when we think about where does the budget go, is getting more and more and more complex. But it is not just Google, it's not just Microsoft, it is a host of other channels, whether that be the Facebook Instagram combo, or Snapchat or Tick tock, which is booming right now. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. So I empathize. I've been there. My, my viewpoint, when I was agency side was always follow the data. And don't be afraid to try and test and so we would lay the groundwork when we were still pitching for business to say, look, you know, we've done our audit, you're on Google looks like you may have tried something on Microsoft advertising, but may not be active and but Hey, have you considered XYZ, all these other things. And so we want to make sure that as we move forward that we set aside time, priority and most importantly budget to test these different things, and then just work with them to prove that out. And almost always with Microsoft advertising, but even other channels that they hadn't tried yet, we would be able to find that little nugget, right? That something that's working and take it and grow that in, you know, that's how you win people over right is follow the data. So I'll start there. When you think about Microsoft advertising, let's just talk search. I mean, it's what one in three searches when you think desktop and in two out of every five, if you think about all device types, so yes, yes, Google is going to dominate when you think search fair, I can't, I can't argue against that. But when you think about a pie, you've got a pie. And you're buying a pie in the store? Are you going to buy just three quarters of a pie? Or, you know, whatever that ratio is? No, you're going to buy the whole damn pie. So think about search? Why wouldn't you get the whole pie? Do what you need to do in Google? And give Microsoft advertising a shot and then follow the data? And so to your point, did this. I think I even share the video with you did a goofy mythbusting thing a little while ago? To around what are some common misconceptions. Alright, Microsoft advertising, advertising is only for b2b. It's only for old people, all these things. And while that may have been somewhat statistically true, years ago, not anymore. So from a gender perspective, it's pretty much equal 50 men and women. Age wise, I've shame on me, I don't remember the number off top my head, but like 40, something percent is 45 or lower, which is prime age demographic. And then when you think about market, you know, verticals, we do well, in travel, in healthcare, tech in telco all of these big verticals. And what's really interesting is looking at the charts of search, volume in search share based on some of those verticals, we actually do better. Right, and some of these verticals than than the average. And my last anecdote, I heard you mentioned 9010, I feel like everybody I talked to is had a different ratio of where they had their clients between Google and Microsoft in the past. I mean, I had clients for a while that I was running, like, closer to 6040. And I think it's one of those things, it's a everybody's going to be different, right? It's, it's different, but like, and I remember that that particular client, my my account rep, at the time, they're like, this is amazing. She was like, if you tell me this the share of wallet data, like what you're spending on Google versus us, that's accurate. Like, why would I lie there, like, That's amazing. And I'm like, well, Shark 22:30 but it's your point, you got to follow the data. At the end of the day, if you have a good customer come as a result of it with affordable click rates, and ultimately affordable not just on a click through rate, but on a cost per customer. And this is the data that you need to follow not preconceived notions. Now, people are still going to start their budget for the most part with how much they're gonna allocate towards Google. But you can't with any channel, just follow only that path and you know, follow us siloed path and ignore the other channels. Again, tick tock to that point. Wonderful example. It's not all Jen's ears. And John Lee 23:09 it is a it is a weird combination of demographics. Shark 23:12 It's a very, it's very interesting demographics. But if since we're going back to the pie, we'll call Microsoft ads in a chicken potpie. You'd be the vegetables. John Lee 23:22 love that. I love that. I mean, I do like the meat but but it's not potpie without veggies. Shark 23:27 Exactly, exactly. Alright, so I want to talk a little bit about your presentation that I saw you recently give, which covered a lot of marketing with purpose, which is also as the friend I mentioned, Ben Tamblyn that I've heard him speak to as well. But I found it interesting that Microsoft on multiple occasions that I've seen him speak at conferences have done a very impactful sort of at the heart less about Google ads and SEO. Right. So your presentation was talking about marketing with purpose driving growth, through trusted brand experiences. You know, one of them really moving videos that you showed was the gentleman who had an he was born with some sort of deformity and idea he didn't have he didn't he didn't have hands, hands and widgets. And he talked about how the package came to him from when he got his Xbox. He couldn't even put into words. He obviously did it in a video in words, but he couldn't put it really into eloquent words that made him feel comfortable with how much it made an impact on his life of what Microsoft and Xbox did for him. And so kind of set up that story about the gentleman in particular and talk about why telling those kind of stories is important to you and important to Microsoft. John Lee 24:44 Yeah, so, you know, we we as Microsoft advertising, a lot of the work that that has gone into research and piecing through what is that data telling us right and when I say research, I mean surveys. Write actual surveys with marketers and clients. And the list goes on. A lot of people touched in that to give their feedback of what is, you know, what is this idea of brand trust and brand loyalty? And how does a business get there? All of that came together into marketing with purpose and a hat tip to my period mj dipalma has really been the tip of the spear for that work. would be remiss if I didn't mention that, but to your specific question. So that video was a gentleman who is a streamer here we go a video game streaming, right like this guy plays games, online on video right for people to watch him on Twitch, he was probably on mixer before I'm sad, sad face, no more mixer. But, you know, he's somewhat well known right in the gaming space. And yeah, his video is all about when he ordered the new Xbox series x. And he received the package. And he was in tears. And the first time I watched the video, I was in tears, just explaining how to I don't know how they did it, they being Microsoft's I don't know how they did it. But they designed a package. For me. All I had to do was undo this little bit of tape and the box just opened. And there was very easy access. So it didn't matter that he didn't have a hands, he could still open it up and get to the product. And so that's this idea of inclusivity in that case, inclusivity and product design, and in packaging design. And, you know, obviously we're coming at it from a marketing perspective. And so that's why it's marketing with purpose and thinking through how do we approach in our copy our images or videos just how we show up to be inclusive. And when you do that, and you do it in an authentic way. That is how you win people over I did this brand loyalty. And one of the the words that came out of this is love. It's not just loyalty, but you can have individuals, customers fall in love with you and your brand. That's powerful. But it goes it goes both ways and actually wrote an article on media post. Just yesterday, actually, that was speaking to the same thing, that's this idea of brand trust. It comes in this is this is something that's in in some of our work, but like a brand trust comes to you and drips, when you lose it, you lose it in buckets, so it's hard to get super easy to lose. And that's an important lesson for I think people just you and me right to understand about trust, but that you know, explodes it extrapolates quickly when you think about a brand and how many, you know, hundreds or 1000s or potentially millions of customers have. Shark 27:56 It's not just trust, it builds loyalty. You and I even discussed this during the conference. But this guy became a super fan. Yeah, an advocate and he will stay that way for life. And he was like many people that have some form of disability. And that's a large number. Not everybody has his affliction. But whether or not somebody is challenged in some way, when a company can come help them. These are people with real purchasing power. These are not weak victims, they just need a little bit of help. And they can really turn into some loyal superfans, and tell a much better story about your brand and any of your brand speak ever. Well, absolutely nothing that Microsoft or any other brand could ever tell me that this person couldn't tell better and really show more influence. Yeah, John Lee 28:42 well into that in that's why my teammates Stephanie, you know, a big part of her job is working with clients to put together testimonials and you know, client first stories because our clients day in day out will tell our story better than we can every day. Right? And sometimes that's through data, right? data storytelling is very powerful. But oftentimes it's a, you know, in my account rep did this and something broke and our immediate reaction was, this is bad, you know, shame on you Microsoft advertising, but then we worked to a resolution and now like, you know, how could we not trust you and like it's like, okay, you know, my job here is done. Shark 29:25 Well, john, you're in Louisville, Kentucky. So sharks are never in the Ohio River, at least any confirmed stories I've ever seen. But what what is your favorite kind of shark or shark story and why? John Lee 29:39 Well, I have to say that seeing the whale sharks at the Atlanta zoo, or the Atlanta Shark 29:46 Georgia Aquarium. John Lee 29:47 Thank you. Yeah. Oh my god, like I was a full on adult. And you know, I had both of my children, my wife with me, and I'm pretty sure my jaw was dropped far more than either of my kids was and it's just Just a sense of wonder, but, and I've always been perplexed by and curious about hammerheads. What a weird, odd little creature like, how does it get get by in life having such a wide head with eyes on the end? Like that's so odd to me Shark 30:20 seeing both of them in the wild and they're both amazing. So, john, it's a special time in the show. Are you ready for the five most interesting and important questions that you're going to be asked today? That's what I'm here for. Yeah, let's do this. That good. That's the whole show. We should we're just gonna head out all the everything. That's right. All right. Number one. piano or guitar? only live good answer. Listening. Listening guitar. playing piano. Alright, number two Kentucky bourbon or Tennessee whiskey. John Lee 30:54 That is a very easy answer. And that's going to be Kentucky bourbon for the wind wrong. Shark 30:58 Dump pump a boom. John Lee 30:59 It's all good. Honestly, I mean, if it's whiskey, you know, okay, true. That's true bourbon bourbon is near and dear. Shark 31:05 Yeah. Alright, number three greatest talk show hosts ever late night talk show host Jay Leno or David Letterman. John Lee 31:15 I'm a Letterman fan. Through and Through both the Indiana connection the Ball State connection. He and my mom were actually at Ball State the same time back in the 60s. But at the end of the day, like Letterman just I don't know he's my kind of nerd. We're Same here. Shark 31:34 Yeah. Number four greatest coach in the Commonwealth of Kentucky history. Rick Pitino or john calipari and let's skip all the anything bad that either of them did said or was accused of in the past just we're talking coaching, John Lee 31:53 right? And to be perfectly honest, I have zero skin in this game. So either answer I give I'm not going to make myself upset or anybody else. I'll go Calipari I mean, the record speaks for itself. Shark 32:06 Yeah, except he had two Final Fours vacated. But that's another story. One of those hurts a little bit more than the other. John Lee 32:13 I mean, I'm a Hoosier at heart. So I mean, let's talk about bobby knight. Come on. Shark 32:17 You're from Ball State. John Lee 32:18 So I You're right, that's right. Oh, can I tell quick super quick sports story about Ball State Sure. My freshman year at Ball State their entire history. Like in the midst in the midst of the longest at that time, at least the longest collegiate football losing stress. And had I got on force I didn't get to go to the game. I was working at the library that day cuz you know, loser. But anyways, um, they won the game course. Everybody stormed the field ripped down the goalposts. The coach had the clear mind to get the game ball and he flew to New York City that night was on the david letterman show. Because Letterman one of most famous Ball State Alumni was railing on Ball State every night and the dude was like finally here shut up please. But that happened while I was at Ball State that's a fun that was it's a fun memory Shark 33:15 number five and the most important question that you're going to be essay is biscuits or cornbread. John Lee 33:21 That's see that one hurts can have because I don't really do bread anymore of any sort. Man this is like a contextual elements of this too. Right? Like biscuits and gravy but then and you're in that Indiana corn connection you know, I know and but like corn bread and chili corn and beans like Oh, man, about corn bread. Okay. Shark 33:52 Alright, so john, we don't want people to Google you. But being you instead of being it'd be cool to be politically correct. But where can people find out more about you follow your work at Microsoft and more? John Lee 34:03 Yeah, fair enough. I'm on Twitter at john underscore a underscore Li, LinkedIn the john a Li. Shark 34:11 JOHN, thank you so much for being with us today on A Shark's Perspective. John Lee 34:15 Thank you Kenneth for having me. It was a blast. And I will never forget getting asked questions about corn bread versus biscuits and Yahoo. Shark 34:28 So there was my conversation with john Lee, the head of evangelism at Microsoft. Let's take a look at three key takeaways from our conversation with him. First, don't underestimate putting a face to a brand. Even one is larger matures. Microsoft. A lot of brands struggle with this, especially the larger and more mature ones, but it can be powerful in how you create better partnerships and relationships. Second, for performance marketers don't discount your 10% spend on Microsoft could be more could be less depending on your budget, but it's likely for most marketers an afterthought, however, is I've often made fun of the redheaded stepchild in the search market. At the end of the day, if you get good conversions at a good cost, then that channel is delivered. As john said, the share of wallet is getting more and more complex, but follow the data and test more. In the customer journey, I think of Microsoft as the vegetables and a chicken potpie. Now almost everyone has enjoyed a chicken pot pie at some point in their lives, especially the crust on the edges for me. But without vegetables, that pie wouldn't be complete. Understanding that balance for a customer and how they go through an entire journey and how channels other than just the ones you think are the only delivery mechanisms for customers will give you a better pie. Don't laugh now, but I'm hungry. Just don't be afraid to swim in other waters and test different channels that can perform. Third, when I've seen Microsoft presented quite a few conferences, I've often really enjoyed how they market with a purpose in their case inclusivity. As he said, I'll paraphrase. When you do it as in market yourself when you do it in authentic way. That's how you win loyalty and customers who will fall in love with your brand. Also with that you gain trust. He went on to say as we sometimes hear that brand trust comes to you in drips, but you lose it in buckets. It's hard to gain but it's easy to lose. Amen to that. Got a question? Send me an email to Kenneth at a shark's perspective dot com. Thank you again for the privilege of your time. I'm so thankful to everyone who listens. Thank you to the amazing sponsors invoke and drips. So would you do me a favor? If you liked this episode? Would you consider writing a review and help me preach the marketing gospel anyways, so let's get back together soon. And please join us on the next episode of A Shark's Perspective. [music]