Transcription
****Please forgive any and all transcription errors as this was transcribed by Otter.ai.****

[intro music]
Shark 0:16
Welcome back and thank you for joining A Shark's Perspective. I am Kenneth "Shark" Kinney, your host and Chief Shark Officer.

Shark 0:22
Let me tell you about two amazing sponsors who make this show possible.

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Shark 1:10
And now back to the show.

Shark 1:12
Is technical SEO dead. I mean, after all, we get so used to talking about title tags, keywords and schema markups that we forgot about what the purpose of the user, the reader your customer is, seems like they would be just as important as making Google happy. But is there a way to really build authority and not just through technical SEO efforts with developers, but through a purpose driven approach that can be built for any brand's website.

Shark 1:36
Dale Bertrand is the founder and president of Fire&Spark and an SEO specialist to Fortune 500 companies and venture backed startups around the world.

Shark 1:44
And on this episode, we'll discuss the idea of the end of technical SEO, the content and signals that resonate with your audience are purpose driven approach, influencers and authority link building, story driven approaches yelling fire and sparking a crowded theater, coffee for fire departments, sizeable content, making Google happy, the future of SEO code versus no code sites, the next Seth good and Squarespace website, Boston's, Matt and Ben, and a lot, lot more.

Shark 2:10
So let's tune into a fun conversation with a fiery Dale and a Shark who is en fuego, and that's what they call me Señor Tiburón, on on this episode of a sharks perspective.

Shark 2:24
Dale, thank you so much for joining us today on A Shark's Perspective. Would you please tell us a little bit about your background, your career story to date?

Dale Bertrand 2:32
Yeah, so thank you for having me, Kenneth. But I'm going back. Hopefully no t too far. I,

Shark 2:39
Child birth. Start there.

Dale Bertrand 2:44
I have a technical background. So I studied engineering in school, in AI in grad school. So immediately after college, I was I was a software guy. So I did software in a number of different tech startups. But then after that around like 2008, I got into digital marketing. So I started out doing freelancing in digital marketing. And back then I was doing advertising SEO content, pretty much whatever somebody would hire me for, but quickly, quickly got into SEO and really landed on just specializing in SEO. I mean, I did have some background when I was in grad school, because we were building a search engine in grad school. And but of course, it made more sense for me to optimize for Google rather than compete with Google. But that's how I ended up where I am now. And now I run fire and spark. We're in the SEO agencies. So we focus on SEO, that's what we do nothing else. And love working with brands and challenger brands and new companies all that.

Shark 3:48
So I know a lot of what you talk about is sort of the end of what you refer to as technical SEO. Talk about why you believe that and how you're seeing what you call purpose driven link building to accelerate SEO growth. What does that mean to you? Yeah, so

Dale Bertrand 4:03
the the end of technical SEO, so it's heresy, right? Because I'm, I'm a technical guy. And I got into SEO, because I love web technologies. And I was really excited about how to search engines work. And what could you do to manipulate those results in ranking so that you can get valuable traffic? One of the first projects that I worked on was website that I owned, and back then and this is around, you know, 2008 2009 2010 ish, kind of kind of timeframe. Back then the reason why SEO was fun for me is because it was all about optimizing the website. So making sure that you've you've got the right tags, sitemap, Google can crawl, index everything. Then you've got the keywords in the right places, and all that sort of thing. And SEO is just evolved dramatically since then. So back then you can make those types of technical optimizations on page optimizations and see a significant increase in traffic. For me on that, that first significant, so first large projects that I worked on, we were able to do those types of things in order to get to rank number one for the keyword nursing degree, which was like the money keyword that paid all my bills the year after my son was born, because I didn't work that year. But that back then we're really focused on technical optimizations. If you fast forward to nowadays, like Google, it's no longer a rules based search engine. It's not, you know, solely based on the PageRank algorithm, that that we all remember when Google started. So nowadays, it's aI driven, and the AI is really trying to emulate human decision making at a large, large, humungous scale billions of pages. So imagine, Google's built an AI, that's like a librarian that knows every page and everything about every page, and every specific every topic that there is. And if you type in a keyword, you know that that librarian can recommend exactly the right page for what you're looking for. And that librarian, just an example. And given here knows exactly what what your intention is behind what you're looking for what you need. So the AI is, Google's AI is able to figure out what people are actually searching for, and what is the right page. And it's divorced from the rules that Google was using originally. Now, it's really based on basic training the AI using the panel of humans to understand what the AI is doing. So what all that means is that when you're doing SEO, the optimization, you're not, or I don't believe you should be focused on the technical aspects like we used to be. But instead, like really looking at what does it take to build to build an audience around your brand, or the products that you're selling or the content that you're publishing, and you want to be able to show Google that you're gaining momentum with your, your brand or your content. And then Google's able to see people engaging with that content and linking to that content and staying on your site. And now all of a sudden, your your website looks like a site that is building momentum on with the internet audience, and Google will give it rankings and traffic because of that.

Shark 7:22
I love the mention of it being heresy to people that are 10. Alessio, it's the equivalent of yelling fire in Spark in a crowded theater. How about that?

Dale Bertrand 7:32
Oh, that's a good point,

Shark 7:33
can you use that one just might narrow it down to a half hour. Alright, so this approach, I'm sure when you go in and explain this to people, they're probably concerned with what do I sacrifice to get there? But how do you start moving in that direction, also, so they're not giving up anything with their current SEO efforts? Because like everything else, a lot of this gets baked into our mindset. And we set it and forget it do the same things over and over again.

Dale Bertrand 8:05
Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, if you want to rank well, in a competitive market, in Google, you have to have content that resonates with somebody. And one example, like we work with a 3d printing company, they sell high end expensive 3d printers to professional engineers, it turns out that we were able to get links to their website from hobbyists, people who are building their own 3d printers, or writing their own code for 3d printers. Because those are the people that are active online in terms of linking to content sharing content and engaging with content online. So you what I want to tell people is like, there needs to be an audience that your content engages with, even though it might, it might not be that you're resonating with exactly the people who you want to type in queries, land on your website and buy something, but you need but need to resonate with somebody or some audience out there. And when you're doing that, like, you also want to make sure that you have the right keywords, and you're targeting the right keywords. But you're not focused solely like we used to do back in back in the day on optimizing page layouts, Sitemaps your robots. txt file, you know, things like that, like we're really doing our research around, you know, what is the audience that we're going to that we want to resonate with? And what is the the content that we're creating, that's going to resonate with this audience? And then as a side effect of that, what are the signals the technical signals that Google is going to see? So that Google recognizes that our brand, our website is resonating with an audience, and then we can build out keyword focused content from there to get that to rank?

Shark 9:52
So you're not talking about getting rid of any technical SEO optimizations? It's just moving the focus to more of a Purpose Driven? Is it fair to say?

Dale Bertrand 10:02
Yeah, so we, with the purpose driven approach, it's really like, once you recognize that, you know, in order to do well, in a competitive market with SEO, you need to generate like a brand or content that resonates with somebody, then we start asking for, okay, what are the easiest ways to to resonate? Like you, you might have a brand, sorry, a product that's just blowing up, or you might be noteworthy for some other reason. But most of the time when a brand comes to us, they're really trying to figure out like, what are these campaigns that we're going to run that are going to build authority. And the authority we're looking for at the end of the day is backlinks, engagement, positive reviews, mentioned with positive sentiment, all of that online to in to improve your rankings and to improve the rankings of the keyword focused content that you're creating? So the reason why we end up on this, like, purpose driven SEO approach is because that's really the shortcut to thinking about how can I generate some content that resonates with somebody and Google will see it?

Shark 11:04
How do we connect with, say, like minded organizations and influencers without necessarily paying a rate card in air quotes?

Dale Bertrand 11:12
Oh, yeah, we we, I mean, it really starts with authenticity. So you really have to figure out what does your brand stand for what is what's something that would resonate with the community that you want to go after that is in perfect alignment with your brand. So you wouldn't want to, you know, write a lot of content about saving the whales, if that's not something your brand cares about, or is aligned with because it's just not going to work? Because it's not authentic. So when we start working with a brand, we go through what we call like an authority discovery session. But what that really is, is a bunch of questions, where we're trying to understand, you know, what have you done in the past? What is your brand about? And what can we leverage for SEO for authority Building for SEO, and a lot of times, that's a purpose. And the purpose might be a social mission. But for us, most of the time, it's not like a lot of times, it's the purposes behind like the quality of the products. Or it might be a story driven SEO approach, or what we call a story driven SEO approach, where you might have founders who have a backstory, and we can tell that backstory and use that to resonate with the community.

Shark 12:25
So help define what story driven SEO is versus purpose driven SEO. Now that you mentioned that,

Dale Bertrand 12:31
they're definitely related. But for the story driven approach, that's really a bunch of strategies that we put together that are using, like, for example, we have a client, Fire Department coffee that we work with, and the founder is a veteran and a firefighter. So the stories were able to tell around the founding of the company, and why the company exists, all revolve around these communities around first responder communities, and also military and veteran communities. So we're able to tell a story about the brand that resonates in those areas. Um, that just just makes for some great content. And like, like I said before, that content generates links, engagement, all the stuff that Google is looking forward to raise the authority of the website. But that's just one example of like a story driven approach, like, what is the story about the brand, or the founders or the products that we can use to resonate for SEO?

Shark 13:31
What channels did fire department coffee use to build their brand story.

Dale Bertrand 13:36
So they did a lot with SEO. So that's creating creating content, getting it to rank and then also link building content. But they also were huge on social media, where they had some funny videos, and some other social media posts. And then they they also did a bunch in terms of connecting with influencers in the space. So firefighters, there were a couple firefighters that were that had a big audience, and that was just perfect for them to get into into that community. And then same thing in with a couple of veterans influencers.

Shark 14:15
So you mentioned sizable content, what's the best way for a brand to go about creating sizable content for link building?

Dale Bertrand 14:23
Yeah, this is something I talk about because it's another one of those shortcuts. So um, you know, back in the day, it was so I've done a lot of Link Building for a long time. But the one of the many strategies that used to work is creating the best content on a subject like it might be a guide on 3d printing, if you're new to 3d printing, this is the guide nothing's gonna look better or you're or be more comprehensive than this guy, then you do a lot of email outreach, to get links. So nowadays, when you do that, you send those emails the vast majority of people don't respond as always, but even ones that do respond are gonna ask for money because they realized how valuable those Links are, the way that we've gotten around it is one of the ways is what it was what I call suitable content, which is your you're looking for a cause that you can be be opinionated on. An example is immigration issues, we have a client in the financial space we work with, where we put together a campaign where we're interviewing immigrants in the US, and we're telling stories like the good and the bad in terms of their experience immigrating and living in the US. And what we're able to do is to reach out to advocacy groups. So these are groups that work on public policy or log law firms, you know, a bunch of law firms that we work with. And the reason why we call it sizable content is because these advocacy groups will point to or basically link to the interviews that we're creating, because they're using them for their own advocacy. So they're not, they're not turning around us and saying, Oh, well, we'll link to it if you pay us because their incentives are totally different. Like they're looking for content that kind of proves their point, so to speak. So if your brand is aligned with that type with with that issue in particular, then that's that's a good strategy. But obviously, that particular strategy isn't going to be right for most brands. But the key is to really figure out what what issues are aligned with your brand that you can authentically talk about. Interviews are just an easy type of content to create, because you can talk to somebody write an interview, and then do a bunch of promotion. As long as it's the sizable content that you and I are talking about.

Shark 16:36
So just purpose driven SEO work more for b2c b2b? Where do you see it executing the best? Or is it all over the board,

Dale Bertrand 16:46
we've had good results with both. It just give you another example. There's a manufacturing company that we're working with, and they make these straps that bind wires together. So if you're an electrician, you need to bind those wires together so that everything's neat and pretty. And when they came to us, like the company is run by two engineers, and these guys are just like they're their manufacturers, they just care about the quality of their products and getting things done like efficiently. When we talk to them about their company, we realize that one of the founders is a like he, he volunteers at a trade school in town. And what we were able to do is put together an authority building campaign, that we called recruiting the next generation of electricians, because what he was excited about is that there there are a bunch of jobs in the trades that young people don't know about. And these are good jobs that young people would be happy with if they if they knew how to how to get them and that they existed in the first place. So now when it comes to link building and building authority for his website, we're able to reach out to anybody that cares about career opportunities for young people or the trades, like one area is like trade unions that would link to something like this. So we're able to get those links to the website to a boring manufacturing companies website that normally be nearly impossible to get links to, and generate also some keyword targeted content for the keywords around these velcro straps that we want to rank for, and and really launch their SEO campaign.

Shark 18:16
So from a technical perspective, then what are you seeing today that makes Google the happiest? This continues to evolve? And I want to make certain that we do cover some of that and make certain that we avoid things that Google doesn't want us to do. And that continues to evolve?

Dale Bertrand 18:32
Yeah, I mean, it's really like two categories of things. Like one is the basics, Google can see your content, like there are websites out there that have you know, they're broken in the sense that Google can't crawl, can't see the content on their site. That's rare. But that's like the first thing. It makes sure that Google can actually see your content.

Shark 18:54
Go into that further, though, explain what you mean by that.

Dale Bertrand 18:57
What I mean by that is people come to me, because when I speak at conferences, I talk a lot about the end of technical SEO, like that's not what you should be focused on, if you want to double triple your organic traffic. And then people come to me and they say, well, Dale, you're wrong. And the reason why you're wrong is because I worked on this website, you know, cars for you, and your mom calm where like, they their website was broken, like Google couldn't see their pages, and I fixed that. And now all of a sudden, they're indexing, they're getting some traffic. So what do you mean, technical SEO is dead? So um, yes, you need to be careful, it is rare. But if Google like can't fix your pages, because your website is not accessible, then yeah, you're you're out of luck. And you need to hire a developer to fix that before you can do the real, every sorry, the type of SEO that I'm talking about. But that's why I was mentioned that because it is true that there are a few websites out there that are just fundamentally broken and they need technical SEO Help. So once you've fixed that problem, Probably fired your current developer because that should never happen, then we should talk about, you know, do you want to continue down the path of focusing on technical issues that will get you like a 10 20% Bump? Or do you want to double triple your traffic where you really need to be building out content that resonates content that's keyword targeted, and generating authority through links and engagement and positive sentiment and all that good stuff. So the the other part that I wanted to talk about is that the things that Google loves are really the signals that signal to Google that your brand is getting traction with an audience or your your audience that you're selling to, but it really could be, you know, some other audience. But if you think about it, like if I were to launch a new brand, or launch a new website, and I'm getting, you know, we're getting links, we're getting traffic, that traffic is engaging with the website staying there. We're getting mentions, we're getting reviews, we're getting reviews in Google, and other places, like that's the sort of thing that Google is looking to pick up on, that your your brand is getting traction. So that's the way that I would think about it, because that's really what what if you think about like, there's so much competition to competition for rankings, that, you know, Google needs to really understand, you know, what brands are established? Because that's what people expect to see in the rankings. And what brands are building momentum, because these are the Challenger brands that Google wants to wants to surface, because Google has reason to believe that you're gonna like what you see, because because Google has proof that these brands are building momentum and really resonating with an internet with an internet community,

Shark 21:49
what will SEO, in your opinion look like? And the near to mid term, say, from short term to five years out?

Dale Bertrand 21:58
What it's going to look like is that your web developers will finally understand SEO. But what it'll be is they'll understand, like, what's left of the technical piece, which is, you know, get you on the right CMS, make sure it's tuned for speed, make sure who can see all the pages. The sitemap is the right thing, like so you're gonna, you really are going to get that from your your web developer right now, web developers don't exactly understand it. But as they get smarter, and CMS is going to get better, you're going to just get that for free when when your site is built, or, you know, you build it on a CMS. And then the other thing that will happen in the future is that like the SEO profession, people who consider themselves SEO specialists, they're not going to be web developers anymore. They're really going to be coming from PR or content, because that's where the creativity can really be leveraged to, to increase your your SEO results.

Shark 22:56
So how comfortable are you with the no code websites out there today? The Squarespace is of the world and a lot of things we do on WordPress, which are pretty much plug and play as well. From an SEO standpoint, do any of them give you a great pause? We feel comfortable with them.

Dale Bertrand 23:13
So the thing is, like we have think about it from Google's perspective. If I'm if I'm Seth Godin, and I'm on I start a Squarespace site, and I have this I have an audience loves what I do. And I'm smart guy, people love to read my insights. Does Google really care what type like what type of website it's built on? Google wants to surface that content? Because it's great, useful content. And that's it. So then you have to start thinking about, well, what are the signals that Google's using to see that like, well, this is the next step, go, maybe it's not so good is the next. This is the next Seth Godin. versus, you know, this is this is Dale's mom writing about her plants and nobody cares. So um, you know, Google's able to see the signals from like, how the audience is interacting with the site and how the internet is responding to the content. So the reason why I'm saying that is because, yes, I get frustrated when I look at Squarespace sites, because I have a technical background. And I was like, Man, I would have done that differently. And I wish it was easier to do the types of things that I want to do on a Squarespace site. But at the end of the day, as Google's getting better and better. They're trying to they're they're trying to build a search engine that can look past that. Because that's not what I care about. When I'm searching for how to prune my rosebush. When I'm searching for how to prune my rosebush. I want the best information on how to prune my rosebush. I don't care if it's built on a technical platform that's deficient. So that it just makes no sense that like Google's not headed in that direction. So there's a bare minimum of technical competence that like a CMS and a, you know, web development web framework like like Squarespace needs to have In order for Google to be able to efficiently fetch all the pages, see all the content and evaluate it for rankings. But beyond that, like, why would Google care because searchers don't care what platform it's on.

Shark 25:13
So Dale, as we get to know you a little bit better, I ask this question of everybody that's on A Shark's Perspective, which has the most optimized perfect website on the planet, of course, and don't laugh? What is your favorite kind of shark and why?

Dale Bertrand 25:28
Well, I guess, sand shark, I think they're called saying charts. But the reason why I would say why is because the only one I've ever actually caught, but whatever those little ones are, and that you can easily catch on the beach and they kind of get in the way because I was hoping to get something more tasty.

Shark 25:45
Yeah, throw definitely thrown back in. Well, Dale, it's a special time of the show. Are you ready for the five most interesting and important questions that you're going to be asked today? Oh, absolutely. All right. Number one, we spoke about fire department coffee. Good brand. So the question is dark roast or medium roast?

Dale Bertrand 26:03
Definitely the Dark Roast because I'm I'm not a coffee drinker. Oh, when I do like that. That's that's what I would go for.

Shark 26:12
Yeah. Alright. Number two. Google goes away one day, which is your preferred search engine that we forget about Microsoft, Bing, or Yahoo. Okay, so

Dale Bertrand 26:24
we're limiting Microsoft.

Shark 26:25
Let's say that. No, let's say that Google goes away one day disappears, wins the lottery. Most of Tahiti, you're left with which one of these two is your favorite? Microsoft Bing or Yahoo? From a search engine standpoint? Oh,

Dale Bertrand 26:38
just for for sentimental reasons. Definitely. Yahoo. Cuz I mean, he's I, I think I've used Yahoo since day one. Yeah, that's good. Seth Godin writes all the time on Yahoo.

Shark 26:53
Yeah. All right. So you're a Bostonian. And we're going to talk about famous Bostonian actors and ambassadors for the city, Matt Damon or Ben Affleck.

Dale Bertrand 27:04
I can't tell the difference. So I would say because he said his name first. Yeah. I live life can tell the difference. So I'll ask her and get back to you.

Shark 27:14
I love it. I love it. Yeah. All right. Number four, is a very fire in Spark kind of question. Because it's 12 degrees in the winter in Boston all the time. Real wood or gas logs?

Dale Bertrand 27:29
Definitely real wood. The gas logs just don't smell like real wood. Thank

Shark 27:33
you. Alright, number five. And the most important question that you're going to be asked today is biscuits or cornbread.

Dale Bertrand 27:41
100% Cornbread because I make the world's best cornbread.

Shark 27:46
Very good. Very seldom does anybody say that they make this when I asked that question. So fantastic answer. Alright, so Dale, where can people find out more about you about fire and spark your SEO knowledge, your thoughts in the industry and more?

Dale Bertrand 28:00
Yeah, check out fired spark calm. So we have a newsletter that goes out that that has insights in it. And then we also have our blog and we publish there. And if anybody's interested in reaching out to me directly, I'm Dale at fire and spark calm. So absolutely. I'm always happy to talk SEO, I would do this for fun if I wasn't paid. So feel free to send me any questions.

Shark 28:23
Fantastic. Dale, thank you so much for being with us today on A Shark's Perspective.

Dale Bertrand 28:28
Oh, well, thank you for having me. It was fun conversation Kenneth.

Shark 28:35
So that was my conversation with Dale Bertrand, the founder and president of Fire&Spark and an SEO specialist to Fortune 500 companies and venture backed startups around the world. Let's take a look at three key takeaways from a conversation with him.

Shark 28:48
First, technical SEO is it completely dead but not the focus, it used to be either moving the focus to how your audience resonates with your content makes purpose clear to both those readers and to Google.

Shark 29:00
Second, love the point on suitable content for link building. He referenced building authority with advocacy groups, if your brand has a cause or purpose. For example, a lot of the advocacy groups like Public policy organizations will often provide links that align with their purpose as well. Oftentimes, it can be easier reminds me a little of higher ed as well as authority, lead content and those stories. But great point.

Shark 29:21
Third, I continue as well to be a big fan of no code sites and seeing how they continue to evolve. As Dale said, He sees things that he would develop differently. I do too, as someone who's coded a lot. I mean, a lot of sites. I completely agree. Most users don't care though, if it's crawlable and recognizable by search engines and helps the consumer Well, for the most part, you should be good. That's easier said than done, though, well worth having a great developer so there isn't a problem to start. It's also interesting though, how people who think content as opposed to just software development can start thinking more about link building in a more thoughtful way as well. He thinks of the future looking more where developers understand more clearly SEO and marketers, for example, to be a little more creative to drive rankings. We'll see that it makes sense.

Shark 30:05
Got a question send me an email to Kenneth at a shark's perspective dot com. Thank you again for the privilege of your time. And I'm thankful to everyone who listens. Thank you to the amazing sponsors Invoca and Drips! Please consider writing a review and letting me know your thoughts on the show.

Shark 30:19
Now's the time to light a spark under you and do better marketing from sin your Tiburon I Sulloway go in. Join us on the next episode of A Shark's Perspective.
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