****Please forgive any and all transcription errors as this was transcribed by Otter.ai.****

Dorie Clark 0:00

Hi, I'm Dorie Clark and you're listening to A Shark’s Perspective.

(Music - shark theme)

Kenneth Kinney 0:21

Welcome back and thank you for joining A Shark’s Perspective. I am Kenneth Kinney, but friends called me Shark. I'm a keynote speaker, a strategist, a shark diver, host of the show in your Chief Shark Officer.

Kenneth Kinney 0:32

What is your long term strategy? Seems like many people in companies are pivoting on a dime, as things change so rapidly, but are you actually accomplishing your long term goals with a well planned long term strategy? Many simply just do not have one. So I ask again, are you playing the long game with the strategy of your brand?

Kenneth Kinney 0:53

Dorie Clark is a consultant keynote speaker, once named is one of the top 50 Business thinkers in the world. A teacher at Duke in Columbia, a former presidential campaign spokeswoman, and the Wall Street Journal bestselling author of “The Long Game,” “Entrepreneurial You,” “Reinventing You,” and “Stand Out.”

Kenneth Kinney 1:10

And on this episode, we'll discuss playing the long game with strategic thinking, the three pillars for building your brand, reinventing yourself, standing out, measuring what matters, political spokespeople, writing a Broadway show, becoming an ambassador, the best podcasts out of at least 700, Newsweek shows. sharks and may have sinus problems. finding Disney movies, board games and Lottery games. and a lot lot more.

Kenneth Kinney 1:32

So let's tune into finding Dorie Clark and finding Kenneth the shark on this episode of A Shark’s Perspective.

[intro music]

Kenneth Kinney 1:42

Dorie, welcome to A Shark’s Perspective. Tell us a little bit if you will, about your own Dory story.

Dorie Clark 1:48

Thank you, Shark I'm glad to be here. So my most recent book is called the long game how to be a long term thinker in a short term world. And I these days, do some teaching, I teach at the business schools for Duke and Columbia. And I really center my work around how to help people and companies get their best ideas heard in a noisy and crowded environment. And the way I came to that I've had my own business for about 16 years. But before that, I had a grab bag of careers. I was a journalist, I worked as a political spokesperson. I was a intellectual monkey who attempted to get into doctoral programs and did not after I completed my master's degree, and I ultimately reinvented my self into the career that I have now. And that in some ways became the focus of my first book, which which came out in 2013, from Harvard Business Review Press called reinventing you.

Kenneth Kinney 2:52

Well, so the New York Times describes you as an expert at self reinvention and helping others make change in their lives. It's a nice quote, but what do you think that literally means with reinvention, I guess how it really applies to you and what you've done in your own career?

Dorie Clark 3:06

Well, I think for me, as with a lot of people, you create hypotheses about what you want your life and your career to be. And sometimes those hypotheses pan out and sometimes it takes a while to actually land on the thing that is going to work. And so one of the most important skills that we have to have these days is adaptability and recognizing that we can't just give up if something doesn't play out. We have to keep thinking is there another way to get to this? Is there another variation that might work or even work better and I fumbled my way to it but part of what animated me in wanting to write reinventing you was the belief that you know, I reinvented the wheel but that was That was stupid you don't need to do that. And I wanted to create a guide that could actually help it be easier and smoother for other people.

Kenneth Kinney 4:04

But that was your first book right?

Dorie Clark 4:06

Reinventing you was my first Yeah.

Kenneth Kinney 4:08

Standout was right after?

Dorie Clark 4:10

Correct.

Kenneth Kinney 4:11

So why do you think your first book so quickly of any given with the aid of what you wrote in from Harvard press, but it also made it became a New York Times bestseller?

Dorie Clark 4:21

Actually, it didn't. One of those you thinking it did that's that's a good testament to its, its longevity,

Kenneth Kinney 4:29

which one of your books was a New York Times bestseller?

Dorie Clark 4:32

Technically, none of them. But my most recent book....

Kenneth Kinney 4:36

Wall Street Journal

Dorie Clark 4:37

....the Long Game was a Wall Street Journal bestseller? So yeah, that was that was a little bit of a story of of perseverance and platform building because it was book number four. And I had to sort of work my way into the the knowledge of how to launch a best seller and having having enough connections and having enough audience to be able to get a best seller so It took me four bucks, but we got there.

Kenneth Kinney 5:02

I get the New York Times quote my head when thinking about you. So one of the things you've done in your career also this is that you've been a press secretary and communications director for politicians like Howard Dean and Robert Wright. Putting that hat back on, whenever you sit back and watch any of those people in similar roles today, whether it's crane, John Pierre Jen Psaki, Kayleigh McEnaney, or even Sarah Huckabee Sanders, I'm just curious, aren't you glad that your long game didn't turn into that, because there's a different level of scrutiny to Heiko under, but what you go through in that role, you just must look at it as somebody that's been there in a similar role. And I find that to be very painful.

Dorie Clark 5:42

I have a lot of empathy for people who are working on political campaigns. Now, I mean, even even back then, back in the day, it was an incredibly all consuming job. I remember, I had a, you know, coughing, like, just, I couldn't stop coughing for like seven weeks. And it was it was really just miserable. And it was because I needed an antibiotic, it turned out, and I did not have time to go to the doctor. Like, that's just what your life is like when you're when you're on a presidential campaign. And it's getting toward the primary. It's like, wow, I that hour and a half, I really can't spare it. So I will just be miserable and compromise my health. So that that it's a tough way of life. So I commend the people who are working hard and trying to try to make a difference.

Kenneth Kinney 6:36

Yeah, no kidding. So your big hit long game from 2021, how to be a long term thinker in a short term role. Why do you think that message has resonated so well?

Dorie Clark 6:46

Well, I think that one of the, the fascinating things that has rolled around in my mind for a number of years, I was at my quest around strategic thinking actually started back around 2018, I think it was I was invited to give a talk at the Peter Drucker Forum, which is an annual event they have in Vienna, about strategy. And they basically said, you know, anything you want about strategy, you know, and I was trying to figure out like, Well, okay, what, you know, what could I actually say what would be interesting? And one thing that I realized very quickly was, when it comes to strategic thinking, there's pretty much no debate, right? It's not that there's anybody that's like, Oh, that's so terrible. We hate strategic thinking. I mean, it's the opposite. Everybody thinks being strategic is the world's greatest thing. The problem is not that people don't believe in it. The problem is they don't do it. And so I started to get interested in this question of what what is the gap? You know, what is preventing us from doing the thing that everybody thinks is so great? And that led me down the path of exploring that, you know, how do we become better long term thinkers? And how can we overcome the obstacles that are in our path. And as it happened, I ended up writing the book during COVID. So that was a pretty big obstacle in the path of long term thinking. But the truth is, now that we're past I say, in air quotes, the pandemic, or at least past the worst of it. I believe that this is a unique time, where we're able to do a little bit of a reset. And even though we've been forced into short term thinking, because of exigent circumstances, now's the time that if we do it, right, we can choose, we can actually really make a conscious choice to embrace long term thinking more.

Kenneth Kinney 8:33

When you were studying and doing your research for the book, did you look at any other cultures across the globe? And the reason I ask is because you know that a lot of the Eastern cultures tend to think more longer term than a lot of people here. And I don't know if that's necessarily as true today, as it has been historically. But I'm curious if you noticed any differences at all, especially because, again, you have spoken in Spain, you've spoken in Vienna, a lot of these other Western European countries as well. I mean, there's there's a different nuance, if you will, to each one of those cultures?

Dorie Clark 9:07

Yeah, it's a great question. And, in fact, one of the talks that I gave, about the long game was at something called the Long Now Foundation, which is an organization that was founded by by Stuart Brand and a host of other talented thinkers in the Silicon Valley world, and they focus on I'll call it extreme long term thinking a lot of a lot of what they're talking about is a 10,000 year timeframe. How can we be sort of planetary long term thinkers? And so ironically, they wanted to bring me in for a talk because they said, well, well, you know, what, why don't you come every everybody's asking about like, the short term of the long term. And so my book, which is about you know, how do we be better strategic thinkers over the course of our lifetimes? That's actually sort of the short term compared to the 10,000 year horizon that they're typically D Dealing with. So we had a really great time. But interestingly, their executive directors, a gentleman named Alexandra rose, and I got to know him, I got to have him as a guest on my, on my Newsweek interview show better. And he is working on a book as we speak, that is about extreme long term businesses. And it's about things like, you know, especially in Japan, you're exactly right. There's, there's a lot of businesses like this, where, you know, maybe they they make pottery, or they either a noodle shop or something. And it's literally been handed down through a family for 900 years. It's bonkers if we think about it from an American perspective. So it's really fascinating stuff.

Kenneth Kinney 10:41

Yeah, well, especially if you look at the even the political structure, you look at China, I mean, they just elect their leader to a life. and Great Britain can't keep a leader beyond a couple of months. So it's, it's the philosophy literally goes down to that level of roots, but with the people that you're teaching at Duke and at Columbia, and how are you going about teaching these mines that are young and old, I know that these are not all 18 year old students by any stretch, but to think longer term, and plan strategically than a lot of what you know, what they've been taught over the years, if you will, especially through social media, or really even looking at it through a quarterly fiscal kind of world.

Dorie Clark 11:21

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that you're pinpointing a couple of the chief problems, right. I mean, certainly for, certainly for younger folks, but I think it it's impacting everyone, there's social media, which I think is, you know, it's not just creating FOMO, which everybody talks about, but really even more to the point, I think that it has created a widespread fear that I'm doing it wrong. You know, I have so many clients that, you know, they, they, they come to me, and they're like, a little bit upset, you know, if we have a coaching session or something like that, because they see what other people are accomplishing. And they say, Well, you know, what, am I doing wrong? Why am I not getting that result? Why is it not happening? Why is it not happening faster, and it makes them second guessed themselves. And the problem with that is, you know, first of all, a lot of a lot of the most valuable things in business life as well as personal life, just, they just do take a long time, there's, there's not much you can do about it, it takes a while to percolate. And what constantly shifting your strategy does, of course, is it means you never put in enough time to actually get the result that you want, it ends up backfiring. So having this kind of cycle of second guessing, let me change my strategy, let me try something else ends up meaning that you you never see the result that you want, because you keep pivoting too soon. So a lot of the work that I do with my clients in some ways, you know, I actually feel like the bad guy, because they're like, Well, what about this? What about this, I could try this. And oftentimes I just say, you know, stay the course, keep doing the thing, that two months ago, we agreed was a good thing for you to do. Like, that's, that's what we need to do. And similarly, for folks who are in corporate life, it can be very, very hard with the pressures of quarterly earnings. I mean, you know, unless you're the CEO, it's not necessarily directly touching you. But certainly, you know, the pressure gets magnified down the line, you know, the CP, the CEO is breathing down the necks of the SVPs, the SVP is breathing down the necks of the VPS. And everybody wants to be able to show up, you know, show off their results and get the gold star. And it can be incredibly hard to buck the trend and say, Wait a minute, wait a minute, we probably shouldn't even be making this sale, because this is not in the interest of the customer. And if it's not in the interest of the customer, they're going to drop us soon. And so why don't we wait until next year, when we release the new version, that actually is going to be the thing that they want to create a long term relationship. I mean, the incentives are often really misaligned, because the people who will benefit from those decisions are probably going to be different people, because there's a lot of turnover in corporate life. And so it's very hard to make to make those arguments. I think it requires a lot of courage of character. And I think it requires a lot of looking at incentives to make sure that the fundamental incentive structure is not backfiring.

Kenneth Kinney 14:19

Yeah, and I could get a rail against the fortune 500 that I've worked with over my career, but I also think about a lot of VC startups now and the pressures that they have it all comes down to the money and they're concerned for the customer for example, or developing a long term strategy rarely goes beyond six months in a day it's very hard for people to shape that thinking and look longer term. So you know, at least in the long game when you think about those earmarks gonna you talk about them in the book, help describe what kind of earmarks with timely increments, if you will, people need to sort of think through whether it's a two year mark three year mark five year mark.

Dorie Clark 14:57

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this kind of goes to the question And sometimes people will ask me just at a definitional level, like, well, what is long term thinking mean? And of course, you know, it can mean a lot of things. So, you know, certain, certainly, it can mean, you know, 20 years, 10 years, you know, five years, all of all of that. Also, though, I think that we don't necessarily need to get caught up in it too much. Because I think of it in some ways. Yes, it's about goal setting toward a particular temporal destination. But it's also a fundamental mindset. Because at a really basic level, it is learning to ask yourself at all times, or at least, you know, as often as you can, what can I do today, that will make tomorrow better and easier? You know, what is the small thing that you can that you can do? You know, it's like flossing, right? I mean, flossing is so annoying, and it takes time, and it seems really dumb in a moment, why are we doing it, but 2030 years from now, we will all be extremely happy, we still have our teeth in, you know, when our grandparents did not.

Kenneth Kinney 16:04

It's very interesting as you get older and think about the concept of time, and now you think of it the strategy of your own life, your career, what you want to do, when you look backwards, it's a different lens of looking at time than it is if you look forward, and it's very hard for a lot of people to plan out beyond a day or a week or a year or whatever, it's very easy to look back and look back at over the last 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, it's, it's it's difference between looking at decades in the past, versus, you know, weeks to months to years, to a short number of years in the future. And I think that's, that's very interesting. In the book, you also talk about sort of three pillars with content creation, social proof, and networking, talk a little bit of, if you will, about those, and especially about social proof, because again, that kind of goes back to what we were talking about earlier, how that helps you build your own long term view as a brand.

Dorie Clark 16:58

Yeah, thank you shark, I think social proof is critically important, and sometimes not as well understood as it should be, which is one of the reasons why I really try to hammer it home in, in the long game. And in the work that I do, you know, I have a course called the recognized expert course and sort of built around those principles. And basically, social proof is a concept that gets talked about in psychology. And, you know, in this application, basically, what it means is, what are the markers of credibility that you can surround yourself with, so that other people are more likely at a glance to take you seriously and to listen to you. And this becomes critical? Because of course, you know, I mean, it's right, if you get to know somebody over 20 years, or whatever, who cares what their social proof is, you know them really well, you're around them, you get the vibe. But for we're in such a fast moving society, right now, people are really not paying a lot of time or attention on vetting someone as an individual. They're just really sort of looking, you know, you're they're scanning their inbox, or they're scanning the room, and they're saying, Well, you know, who here is worth talking to? Who here is worth listening to? And that's not necessarily fair. I mean, it'd be great if, if everybody patiently evaluated us on our merits, but they are busy, they just literally don't have the time to do it. And frankly, you probably don't either. And so we're all doing this, for better or for worse. And so if we want to be successful, we need to telegraph as quickly and as strongly as possible that we have good ideas we are worth listening to. So the route to do it is social proof, which is how can we surround ourselves with, you know, largely, what this means is how can we surround ourselves with affiliations that they already know and trust? So that that kind of rubs off on us? So it could be the social proof of you know, it was we're talking about earlier? You know, I teach for Duke and Columbia, those are brand names that people recognize, and they say, oh, okay, well, she must be, you know, she must at least make some sense. If she teaches for those places. It could be about places that have written about you, it could be places you've written for, it could be clients that you've have, it could be conferences, you've spoken at, you know, there's a variety of different variations, but all of them convey social proof.

Kenneth Kinney 19:16

Whenever I coach anybody, I really sort of asked him to sort of look through the prism of their digital footprint. And they create a lot of noise, but often not much of a footprint. And so you can call it SEO for from one angle. But again, sort of thinking through that. How do you look at content creation with what you do for a living now because I see you all the time on Newsweek as he wanted to list all the time of the year. You're putting out a lot of content right now. Yeah,

Dorie Clark 19:41

thank you. So So yes, I do have the weekly interview show with Newsweek that I've done for the last couple of years, and certainly for the past....

Kenneth Kinney 19:48

How did you get that by the way? How did Newsweek approach you?

Dorie Clark 19:51

Yeah, so So the, there's there's kind of a why and a how, I guess the how is that one of the things you know, you're mentioning earlier, the three pillars of the recognized expert formula. One of them social proof, one of them's content, one of them's network. This was a network play, I guess, in some ways, because over the past, you know, seven or eight years, I have been really aggressive about organizing dinner gatherings. And just meeting a lot of people. I had moved to New York, and I didn't know anybody. So I, I really needed to meet people. So at one dinner, a sort of friend of a friend that I ended up inviting was a woman who worked for Newsweek. And that was the initial connection. And then over time, I mean, this, this was not an immediate thing. This was about a year and a half after I first met her, but we had stayed in touch. We ended up having a conversation where we did this, the reason that they were interested, and that I had something to offer was LinkedIn live had really just kind of just started, it was just starting in early 2020. And I had started doing it early on in the pandemic. And I was conversing with this woman about their LinkedIn strategy and about the fact that, you know, maybe this would be a helpful thing for them to try as well. And so we struck a deal for me to host a show.

Kenneth Kinney 21:13

That's brilliant. So other networking, how do you sort of look at networking from a long term perspective?

Dorie Clark 21:19

So in the long game, one of the one, I actually have a chapter about networking, because I have, I have some ideas about it shark. And so one of my most important ones, is a philosophy that I call no asks for a year, because I think that one of the mistakes that a lot of people make even well intentioned people, is they don't quite know how networking should go. And so the minute they connect with somebody who has something of value to offer, like, oh, this person works for this company, or this person knows this other person or whatever, they jump on it too fast. And they say, oh, oh, hey, shark, I know that you've interviewed Seth Godin, hey, can you introduce me to Seth Godin, I've always wanted to meet Seth Godin, or you know, whatever it is, and you know, you're like....

Kenneth Kinney 22:07

Fifteen minute virtual coffee. That's the request we get every five minutes.

Dorie Clark 22:11

There we go. There we go. And it's just it's, it's horrifying. Because, you know, number one, they have no understanding that like, everybody in their brother is asking you the same thing. They are not unique in any way. But they have no knowledge of that. And so you're hearing it and you're like, Oh, God, another like number one, another person asking me for the same thing. Number two, another person who I barely know, who is trying to trade on my hard earned social capital. And they just don't it's there's a cluelessness because they don't understand the enormity of the ask, because it's it's sort of vouching for a person, it's putting your political capital on the line. And so what I really think is critical, is if you're building a relationship with someone, don't do it, because you want a thing, do it because you want to get to know that person. And so if you make a rule, no asks for a year, what that means is that, number one, they will not get the wrong impression that you are only in it to get something from them. And number two, you are not at risk of even secretly formulating an agenda like that, because a year frankly, is a long time to keep up some facade. You know, the point is that you you're not playing some game, you're just getting to know a person. And then once people are friends, they'll do anything for each other. It's all cool. Nobody's keeping track. But you don't want to blow a relationship that could have been promising by jumping too soon on. Give me this. Yeah, I

Kenneth Kinney 23:42

think it's fascinating, because although I agree with everything you just said, I understand as well, I'm sure you do, what the pressures are, that are pushing them into asking these stupid questions. I get it, they need to do it, because they're trying to sell something to make their numbers so they have a living to take care of their families. There's just better ways of going about it in especially even with LinkedIn, it's still engaging with my content, or saying something nice without offering an introduction to anything other than, can you do something for me. Two minutes into the relationship. I just I don't understand it. From from a social perspective, I don't know if they're clueless or if just there if they if they are clueless because of the pressures that are put on them to sell. Not sure what which it is, but it's I haven't figured out the answer myself either.

Dorie Clark 24:35

Yeah, I think I mean, I think you're exactly you're exactly right. And you're pointing to something important. There is an author and I hope I'm pronouncing his name right. I believe it's Sunil Mola, Nathan, and he wrote a book called scarcity. And it is basically He's a sociologist and it's basically you're operating under conditions of scarcity, you know, you don't have enough money or you don't have enough, whatever. And it turns out, the answer is nothing good. Because you get so myopically focused on, I needed this, I needed this, I needed this that all long, you know, to the point of long term thinking, all long term consequences, completely go out the window, you know, you could care less, because the need seems so pressing in the moment. And that's, you know, why a lot of people just lose, lose common sense. I mean, I think if anybody thought about it for five minutes, they realize, Wow, that's pretty offensive, you know, to sort of jump on somebody you've just met and ask them for some huge favor, but the people are feeling, you know, such an acute condition of need and scarcity. They don't care. You know, it's not it's not even on their radar. It's like an addict, you know, being willing to rob you at gunpoint to get money for drugs.

Kenneth Kinney 25:55

Well, you're young, what's your long game? What are you working for in your own future?

Dorie Clark 26:00

Well, I I appreciate I appreciate the compliment. Thank you. I, you know, I'm maybe exam young enough. But, but in terms of my long game, you know, I would say that one of the things that I actually talk about in in the book, the long game, is a plan that I formulated for myself in 2016. And, you know, I'm, I am very much a believer in the adage, that we tend to overestimate what we can get done in a day, and we underestimate what we can get done in a year. And I think that is even more true when you're thinking about multiple years. And so I created in 2016, a 10 year plan for myself, which I am still in the process of operationalizing it and the 10 year plan is to write a show and musical that makes it to Broadway by the 2026 season. So I've got four years to go. But I have been working rather assiduously to try to make progress and make that a reality.

Kenneth Kinney 27:04

Nice. And I did hear that you also want to be an ambassador someday. So I'm curious. You want to be ambassador to what kind of country? Well, you know, we didn't you want the cold? Or do you want like the Bahamas, which has 12 people but beautiful weather?

Dorie Clark 27:21

Uh huh. Yeah. You know, I'm not I'm not so choosy. I would say, somewhere that is not war torn. You know, they don't give us to political appointees anyway, really, they give them to to career diplomats as which is as it should be. But But I but you're exactly right. That is That is probably the I'll call it the the 20 year goal, let's say is to become an ambassador, somewhere. And you know, to point out something else shark that I hear sometimes, there's a lot of people who tend to shy away from developing long term goals for a couple of reasons. One is they say, Well, I just wouldn't know how to do it. And then another reason is, oh, but it sounds so big. It sounds so preposterous. And I really want to knock down both of those things. I mean, it might, I mean, of course, it's preposterous, the idea that I'd be an ambassador tomorrow. But my goal is not for tomorrow, my goal is 20 years from now, like a lot can happen. I could become incredibly qualified in the next 20 years, if I play my cards, right. And also, similarly, I have no idea, you know, how to become an ambassador. I mean, you know, like, I know, broadly, you know, largely, unless you're joining the Foreign Service, what it looks like, is giving a lot of money or raising a lot of money for someone who becomes president. Do I have any idea who is going to be president in 20 years, much less? Who's you know, who's even going to be running for president? No, I have no idea. Nobody has any idea. These are things to be worked out. But I am not overly exercised about the fact that I don't know the answer now. Because no one knows the answer. It's about having an intention. And then keeping your antenna open so that you are ready to be qualified, and you're ready to seize opportunity.

Kenneth Kinney 29:12

Amen. So the listeners won't know this. But before we started hitting record, you told me that even though you've been a guest on over 700 podcasts, this was by far and you emphasize by far, the best podcast you've ever appeared on. And I just wanted to say thank you. But out of curiosity, how do you think about your own content creation now? And the reason I bring this back up again, is you're old enough to, you know, 20 years ago, you weren't thinking about content creation as a play. In your career when you were coming out of college. You graduated in the late 90s from Harvard.

Dorie Clark 29:48

I did my undergrad at Smith and I graduated in 97. And then I finished my master's degree at Harvard in 99.

Kenneth Kinney 29:57

Okay, so in 99, you weren't thinking about How do I get on 700 podcast and do a Newsweek shall be Newsweek was print then. Okay, so how do you long term start now thinking about your own long term strategy with content creation? I mean, you're already everywhere but you got a lot of ways to go.

Dorie Clark 30:16

It's it's true, it's true. We didn't we didn't necessarily have, you know, have to or get to think about content as a strategy because it was it was a fundamentally gate gatekeeper driven situation. I mean, I was....

Kenneth Kinney 30:32

Just updating your MySpace page.

Dorie Clark 30:35

That's right. That's right. I mean, actually, I was I was in in print media. Back Back then I, in 2000, I did a internship at Boston Magazine. And so I was getting little, little clips in the in the print magazine there. But yeah, it's it's a very different scenario, of course. So I think that, ultimately, what what we all need to be thinking about is how can we capture what we're already doing? Because, you know, for so many people, I think the the hang up is you say, Well, I don't have time for content creation. And I get it, you know, if you were having to create something from whole cloth, you're busy, it's, it's hard. But it's also true that a lot of what we're doing, actually can and should be fodder for content creation, we just failed to capture it, I literally just got off a call with a coaching client of mine, and he is himself an executive coach. And we were, we were talking about his content strategy. And I was reminding him, you know, as a drum that I often beat, keep a notebook by your desk, because you're having conversations with people every day, you're talking to your clients, you're, you're seeing what challenges and problems they're having, they have a situation. And that should be something that you can capture and say, oh, you know, I have this client who's having a problem, but you know, what to do, when your manager does XYZ? That could be an article, literally everything you said to your coaching client, that can be your five bullet points, you know, you're we're spewing it out and we lose it, because it just goes into the ether. And maybe it helps that one person, but that's it. But if you can capture it and systematize it and write it down, you know, right after your call, you can bang it into an article pretty fast and capture that wisdom so that other people can benefit from it. So I think it's really just becoming aware of those opportunities a little bit more.

Kenneth Kinney 32:28

Well, Dorie you live in Miami now. I ask this of all my guests and I've got to ask you, since you're near one of my favorite places to dive, what is your favorite kind of shark and why? You know, I bet you've never been asked that before on 700 podcasts.

Dorie Clark 32:44

I sure have not. I have to confess that I don't even know too many sharks. But I've, I've heard of, you know, there's great whites, of course. And they're they're pretty impressive. I think I'm gonna go though with a hammerhead, because they're a little bit funny looking. And I have to believe that because of the way their head is shaped, maybe this is not true. Maybe this is projecting, but I have to believe they maybe have some breathing problems. And I empathize with that because I have sinus problems. So I feel like when I look at, you know, when I look at like Bulldogs, and when I look at hammerhead sharks, I'm like, Man, I relate. I feel your pain.

Kenneth Kinney 33:27

I got it. Well, during this special time of the show, are you ready for the five most interesting and important questions that you're going to be asked today? Oh, I sure am. Yes. All right. Which is better? Hoping you've seen these this movie, but granted the last name of the ladder movie spell wrong, which is better Finding Nemo or Finding Dory.

Dorie Clark 33:48

You know, I'm gonna punt on this shark because actually, I I started to watch Finding Nemo because every you know, my name became suddenly super popular. Because of it. Of course, I'm like, I have to see this cultural phenomenon. And so I watched it, and within 30 seconds, the, like the parents die, you know, like, like every movie like Bambi. And I'm just like, No, I'm not doing this again. Bambi screwed me up. I'm not gonna watch this thing. So I turned it off.

Kenneth Kinney 34:17

Fair enough. Well, it wasn't more of a showcase for Ellen in the second one since she was Dory and she was hilarious. But alright, let's talk long games but long board games. Monopoly or chess?

Dorie Clark 34:30

Oh, wow. I do like them both but I would probably say my monopoly. My my chess skills are are underdeveloped even though I am a fan of it. So I played a lot of monopoly as a kid.

Kenneth Kinney 34:42

Well, you teach at both the schools this is going to be a very politically incorrect answer. I got a hold on to one of these but which do you think is a prettier campus, Duke or Columbia?

Dorie Clark 34:53

Oh boy. I'm going I'm going Duke.

Kenneth Kinney 34:57

Yeah, I was gonna weigh it. I've seen both campuses and Duke is a beautiful campus.

Dorie Clark 35:02

Yeah, it's also a little bit more, you know, sort of self contained to the Columbia campus is kind of, you know, a little more integrated with the community, which is great. I mean, New York is a wonderful place to be. But Duke is more of a campus campus....

Kenneth Kinney 35:14

It's an urban campus versus a traditional campus. So, all right, another long game question. You're young. Let's say you want a $500 million jackpot, lump sum payout, or 30 year annuity?

Dorie Clark 35:29

I think well, I mean, first of all, I'm going to ask, I'm going to ask a tax professional, what's the best thing to do? But I, I feel like a lump sum payout might be better, because then, you know, it's not. It's not like I'm gonna spend a lot of it. I feel like if I had, you know, whatever, 200 or 300 million that I could just invest now over and have it in my in my hands over 30 years, that I would probably do better, just with the with the returns on like an index fund.

Kenneth Kinney 36:00

Fair enough. All right, number five. And the most important question that you're going to be asked today is biscuits or cornbread?

Dorie Clark 36:08

I'm going cornbread all the way but not if there's jalapenos in it. That's weird.

Kenneth Kinney 36:13

Cornbread with Cuban food is good. So now that you're in Miami, you got to enjoy some some really good Cuban food. All right. So Dory, where can people find out more about you get a copy of your books, apply the long game to their own lives, keep up with what you're doing and more.

Dorie Clark 36:27

Shark thank you so much. The new book, again is the long game. You can get it at Amazon and all the book the book like places, Barnes and Noble, et cetera, et cetera. And if folks are interested in learning more about both book and my work, they can actually download a free long game strategic thinking self assessment that helps is a series of questions that help you become an even sharper, long term thinker. You can get it for free at Dorie clark.com/the long game.

Kenneth Kinney 36:55

Dory, it's been an honor, thank you again for being with us today on A Shark’s Perspective.

Dorie Clark 37:00

Thank you, man, I appreciate it.

[music]

Kenneth Kinney 37:07

So that was my conversation with Dorie Clark, a consultant keynote speaker, once named is one of the top 50 Business thinkers in the world. A teacher at Duke and Columbia, a former presidential campaign spokeswoman, and the Wall Street Journal bestselling author of “The Long Game,” “Entrepreneurial You,” “Reinventing You,” and “Stand Out.”

Kenneth Kinney 37:27

First, I love her long term view with networking. Relationships with people in business, the right people, can last a lifetime. That's a long term view, asked me via LinkedIn to do a virtual coffee so that we can see how we can air quote collaborate is so short term. We all know that their pitch is almost always a play for them and never for you. But it's often because they don't care about you. I get it. It's just not authentic. But it should be about you. Selfishly, I'll tell you that when I interview someone, I do my best to have a good show. But just as important. I'm genuinely fascinated by the guests and other people in general. People know me of seeing how I help friends get what they want, and not just what I want. Am I great at it? No, it's a work in progress. But my failure and execution does not come from a failure to care about them. I've just got to work a little harder at it. We all do with this show. I hope that you're not in for just that episode. I hope that you're in this for much longer. And I'll work harder at that. Let's try to connect on LinkedIn with the emphasis on connection. And not just for a bad sales pitch. Be curious about others.

Kenneth Kinney 38:28

Second as she said, no one disagrees that we should be thinking more about thinking longer term. After all, there's not a contingency of folks who just waiting for more short term planning only because they think it's the only way to grow their business. You have to pivot in short term of course, but pivoting only rarely to never point you in the direction that you want it. Now the Chinese in many Eastern Asian cultures are often cited for how they strategically think about the next 100 years whereas many Western cultures often get tied up only in short term thinking. It's a trending hashtag world for too many here today. constantly shifting your strategy often means you pivot too soon. You can try an endless number of ideas to grow your brand, but think about the ones that you know make sense and not just the ones you think are trending measure what matters and don't pivot too soon marched towards your longer term goal, and not just the temporary stops along the way. Be fearless.

Kenneth Kinney 39:19

Third, think about the markers of credibility you need for your brand personal or corporate when thinking about social proofing. Don't only think about the splashiest way that you can put up your curated five star reviews. Think about the long term way people will think about what others say about you when they have a short term visit with you. She talks about her three pillars with content creation, social proof in your network with social proofing and building trust. Well, that comes long term, dive deeper into what others say about you.

Kenneth Kinney 39:48

Got a question? Send me an email to Kenneth at a shark's perspective.com

Kenneth Kinney 39:52

Thank you again for the privilege your time and I'm so thankful to everyone who is listening.

Kenneth Kinney 39:57

As I often say Be Curious, Be Fearless and Dive Deeper. And join us on the next episode of A Shark’s Perspective.

(Music - shark theme)