****Please forgive any and all transcription errors as this was transcribed by Otter.ai.****

Shama Hyder 0:00

Hi, I'm Shama Hyder and you're listening to A Shark's Perspective.

(Music - shark theme)

Kenneth Kinney 0:20

Welcome back and thank you for joining A Shark's Perspective.

Kenneth Kinney 0:23

I am Kenneth Kinney, but friends call me Shark. I am a keynote speaker, a strategist, a shark diver, host of this show, and your Chief Shark Officer.

Kenneth Kinney 0:32

Selling today is dramatically different than it ever used to be. We've come so far though, with websites and social media digital content more, but the advantage of the internet is over. Buyers are living through these changes. Yet many brands still don't understand that journey of where your information may reside and how consumers may view your brand as a possible choice. So how do we go about selling in the digital age?

Kenneth Kinney 0:57

Shama Hyder is the CEO of Zen Media, a digital age strategist, a best selling author and a keynote speaker.

Kenneth Kinney 1:05

And on this episode we will discuss building a brand, selling in the digital age, posting and ghosting, is loyalty over, the advantage of the internet, avoiding regret, cost per acquisition, stumping a guess with a Sharky question, aromatherapy and Zen Gardens, the Dalai Lama and Barack Obama, beaches and mountains, and a lot lot more.

Kenneth Kinney 1:23

So let's tune into a Zen CEO with a shark who's Zen is in the ocean on this episode of A Shark's Perspective.

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Kenneth Kinney 1:34

Shama, welcome to A Shark's Perspective. If you will tell us a little bit about your background and your career to date, please.

Shama Hyder 1:39

Thanks so much for having me Kenneth. Glad to be here. I wear a couple of hats. I think people probably know me most for as runnings and media as founder and CEO been doing that for 16 years now, which is a PR marketing consultancy for a lot of b2b brands, a lot of mid market b2b brands around the world. And then, of course, the way you and I met is through my keynote speaking. So I'm also a keynote speaker, and create a lot of content around marketing, new media, interesting, relevant in this crazy busy world of ours. So

Kenneth Kinney 2:15

how much of your role is dedicated to speaking versus running the agency? Because I know they, they both help grow each other. But if you had to sort of guess a split, what do you think? Yeah,

Shama Hyder 2:28

you know, at this point in my career, I'm just a lot pickier about where I speak and who I want to, who is the wonderful thing I think as you grow in any careers that you get to be more selective. And I would say that's true for me, certainly where I am being selective about who we work with, even at the agency, even doing keynotes, you know, so much of it comes down to spending time with people that you want to spend time with and really, genuinely connect and enjoy it. So to kind of short answer to your question is, it's a combination, right? So certain monsters more keynote activity. And in other months, I'm more hunkered down in the agency side. The reason that I got a great team on this and media sides, we will see that I think that makes it you know, astoundingly easier. And so I weigh in more with the vision, the creative, the strategy, that's the part that I really love to play in. The team does, you know, the execution and God blossom runs runs the company, right? It's just, it's certainly not just me, on the keynote side. What's interesting, and kind of fascinating for me is that being able to run an agency, I'm in the trenches every day. So when I am on stage, I feel a lot more confident about the things I'm sharing, sometimes able to share things that aren't public yet, right. But within that, given audience, whatever that may be. So that's, that's fun. I like that. You kind of call it like being in the clouds in the weeds, meaning as a keynote speaker, I can talk to like that bigger, what's happening in the world, but also really in the weeds of knowing what does it take tactically to make these things happen? And I think I live between those two areas.

Kenneth Kinney 4:12

How big is your agency now? How many 65 people 65 people, it's a good size. So one of the things I had done in preparation for this as well is I had listened to a podcast speech that you did, and it was talking about the lies that you believe marketers believe. And I thought that was great. And I wanted to ask you this, now that you're training these mostly young people that come in to the agency world, I'm sure there's a lot that you've over that 16 years learn and you grow some wisdom, but a lot of people sort of insulate themselves too much in agencies and then many of them insulate themselves too much in brands. I'm kind of curious as you've tried to help those people evolve. What are some of the lies that you help dispel them from so that they can learn to service their customer and their customer their customer better.

Shama Hyder 5:02

Yeah, so one of the things I tell our client side and our internal side right across the board is, it's very important to build your own brand. And I can't tell you, you know, especially like look beat the CMO tenure, the marketer tenure, it's short, it just is. And right now you have a very interesting mix, meaning half the companies that I see have really smart marketers that are working for leadership that just doesn't get it mindset. So mindset thing build, they'll never get it. They may, they may not ever get it. And these marketers are wasting their talents and the time in their careers, when they should be building up a portfolio of work they're really proud of and doing really cool stuff. They're stuck, kind of just churning out whatever assets that you know, they're kind of an on demand factory, especially in the b2b side, happens all the time. And then you have the other side of the company is where you have really smart leadership, smart, smart CEOs, C suite with marketers that just don't have the chops in some of it is just they don't have the skill set, right that you need to be able to win. We see that all the time, we work with companies on both sides of the spectrum. And so I think that's kind of what's fascinating now. And I tell folks across the board, look, jobs come and go, right weather agency, brand, whatever you want to say, but a career is forever. So build that career, both to the work that you do your reputation internally and how you show up. And also the story that you tell right? So kind of you and I are in the storytelling business. That's kind of, that's the business we're in. And it's so funny how few people understand that no matter what business you're in, you're also in the story business, and being able to share that work, especially now if you're working remote. I think that's even more. And I think this big backlash to remote work is not so much where people work from but a lack of leadership, knowing how do you manage people who work remotely? And then how do you work? Well, remotely? I don't like these are all skill sets. Nobody really teaches? Absolutely.

Kenneth Kinney 7:06

Well, the reason I asked that question is I have had a conversation with my niece who recently graduated from college, or fresh out of the farm, if you will, she went to work for an agency. So I was trying to give her some advice as well. But I agree with you on the storytelling part. When you talk about helping folks build their brands, let's translate that a little bit more into what we're doing in the b2b world. How much of this do you think also exist outside of just startups, because there's a lot of the advice especially that I see talking to entrepreneurs, as they start to build their business, they focus on building their brand, but then there are the starting to emerge firms to the you know, the larger technology firms. There's a level of building your brand inside of there and I don't know if that's the right way to ask the question. But I think you know, what I mean from from a different levels of PR support or brand building, how do you sort of look at the types and sizes of companies you work with to help build their brand?

Shama Hyder 8:10

Yeah, so you know, all branding and marketing is not equal, right? Meaning your needs when you're a startup are gonna be different when you have traction and then when you're in enterprise. So different levels I think of communication have to think about it like building building a road, you know, first you start with like that dirt road, then you might have a paved road and you have a highway it's the needs of a company you're gonna differ based on the size you're at and what we're you're trying to accomplish when you for startups, it's much more you know, you have to have the basics right? What's your differentiator? Who are you? Why should anybody listen? Right? When you have some traction, you proven market fit, and so that it's a little bit different. Now, internal comms matters because you have people as you grow internal comms matters even more because now you've got you know, your people are your, your greatest asset and so how you communicate with all your stakeholders, so just things like that, I think and that's where brand can really be defined and redefined based on where you are within your, you know, within the phases of your company. Yeah,

Kenneth Kinney 9:15

that's a good point. I the reason I asked that is there's so many people that take things like coming from Gary Vaynerchuk for example, as the gospel and they go promote themselves ad nauseam but it may not fit for their company you know, they're trying to one one stop fix if you will, for all forms of personal brand building and marketing and then it just seems like they're creating a lot of noise.

Shama Hyder 9:40

Yeah, my challenge with a lot of Guru wisdom right like a called street Guru is dumb. Or Instagram who is dumb is that they all tell you the same thing. Start start start and I there is power. Let's let's not get it twisted. There's power in starting. But what I don't think enough people talk about is it's not hard to stop. work something you anybody can start a business start something putting it out there. Scaling is the whole different beast. Right? So yeah, I think we can put up a shingle I don't think that's, that's hard, you got an idea. And it is important to test the waters and and put things out there I, I think there is no, there is such a thing about getting over yourself and getting over your fears. And you and I do that Kenneth we go on stage and you know, we, of course like you, you want to get over, you're really getting over yourself to be confident and be able to connect with the audience with whatever message you're trying to share. But then, when it comes to actually scaling businesses, scaling a brand, these are very different sets of challenges than just starting a business. And that's why you do see so many things, you know, sputter out people like oh, yeah, I was so excited. I started this. And then three months later, it's nowhere to be seen, right? Because, yes, starting is important, but so is scaling. And that's really so much harder than starting. And I think that's probably why people don't talk about it that much, either. Because it is harder. It's not nearly as sexy as just starting things or putting yourself out there throwing up a few Instagram posts, whatever it is, right tick tock videos, because scaling requires strategy and requires sitting down and doing the hard work and investment of time energy people, it just requires more lift.

Kenneth Kinney 11:23

So the main thing that I think I wanted to talk about which you address, in particular in one of your main keynotes is how to sell in the digital age. And I want to cover some of the things in that the shift is obviously continuing but help define where you see where we are today with selling in the digital age and where we're progressing. Yeah,

Shama Hyder 11:43

look, selling in the digital age in 2023 2024. Right on the cost of of that is dramatically different, it has to look different. And the companies that are really struggling are the companies that haven't got the memo or aren't willing to embrace the fact that the buyer today is so much more empowered than they ever were. Right. So before it was like a nice to have a website was a nice to have things on social channels nice to have. When these nice to have things become necessities, the game has changed. And let's take a very micro example. Let's take SEO, for example. Right? So this is how you manage to get people who are already in the market for your services, someone's looking for a b2b marketing agency, I want to pop up for it, whatever rate you'd like you're trying to get that market share. But what happens when people just go to chat GPT. And by the way, we get leads from chat GPT and AI, but someone just goes I'm looking for and we've already, you know, so much of the Internet has done the work of educating it. So just gives you the answer. Or even if you go to Google, sometimes you put in a question, it'll give you the answer, you didn't even have to go to a page it was gives you right what you were looking for. But tick tock and Instagram and LinkedIn becoming such search engines for people trying to find things. And that's where I think, you know, we are very much in a dark social era, the term is not new, but now you really see it come to full fruition. And so what becomes important is amplification distribution, understanding that the buyer has power now, like information is not the secret sauce anymore, right? For the longest time, it was like a buyer had to start their buying journey with the company with sales. So how do you get information you call sales, you have to ask sales questions about what you're trying to learn. But what happens when they have all the information they need? The competitors are providing it like it's there, right? The Internet has changed everything you can now get information, what we find is that buyers aren't even reaching out to sellers until they are 60 to 90% depending on which study you look at from Gartner or Forrester or whatnot 60 to 90% Take your pick of study through that buying process before they approach sales. So what is sales except glorified order taking, which is still awesome, right? That means marketing did their job. Everyone did their job, but it was very different. So when people say their sales lead companies, I think it's such a mistake, because while sales is supremely important, what you should be is the buyer lead company, understanding that you're selling the way the market wants you to cater to them, not the other way around.

Kenneth Kinney 14:27

Would you differentiate that answer and a lot of B to C and I know you primarily work in b2b, but in b2c, where maybe it's a lot more lead driven business, especially when you consider you know, the way I buy an enterprise software is obviously much different than I buy a dishwasher. Ridiculous examples, but you know what I mean by that? Oh, really good.

Shama Hyder 14:50

Good examples. Kenneth. And I would say yeah, look, b2c has always had to sell to consumers. They've had to be creative. That's why b2c marketing is so much better than b2b marketing most time Right, because there is no intermediaries, they have to get the FDA convinced there is no sales, your sales, right? Everything, like you have to sell direct, we're b2b is more nuanced. So the thing that I tried to tell people to think about the difference between buying a dishwasher and buying enterprise software is when you buy and this by the way goes to like booking keynote speakers the difference, when you're buying a dishwasher, you're trying to avoid regret. That's the emotion you're trying to avoid. You don't want to get something and kick yourself because it was just funny story. I just got my iPhone, and a new one came out about this like a week ago, and and you will hear about yesterday, basically, right? So it's like, you don't want to have that feeling of regret, meaning I should have just waited or I got something I shouldn't have. That's the emotion you're trying to avoid. So when you do your research, we're trying to make sure that you make the best choice possible for yourself. So future you isn't mad at you know, yesterday, you today you would be the be, it's so different because the emotion you're trying to avoid is blame. And that's true. Even if it doesn't, you know, at the very extreme level, your job is on the line because the company goes, Why did you hire this person? That's why I said it's like not unlike keynote speakers, because why did you book this person, right? And so the, the need for trusted vetted, that changes a lot because you're going with the safe choice, the Trusted Choice may not even be the best choice. But it's the trusted and safe choice that you know is not going to land you in trouble. The other thing is there's lots more usually people in b2b. So it's committees. It's not no, you know, your committee for the dishwasher, maybe you and your partner, right? That's the committee. But when it comes to these bigger when it comes to business purchases, you need to get buy in from other folks. So there are nuances, of course to b2c and b2b buying. Certainly. Yeah,

Kenneth Kinney 16:51

good point. And one the committee is my wife decides and then I have to, I have to pay for it. She just tells me what to do.

Shama Hyder 16:59

So you're the CFO got it.

Kenneth Kinney 17:00

Exactly and I it makes me laugh, thinking about that announcement with Tim Cook's FOMO. For this one was really going from firewire to USB C. So thank goodness, they didn't tell me the camera was 1000 times better, because that's what I love about the iPhone. But what are some of the things that will help you outperform your competition every time?

Shama Hyder 17:20

Oh, what are some things that will help you outperform your competition every time playing the long game? You know, doing the things that aren't sexy, which is consistency, patience, because people want to jump on the new thing and I get it there is you know, there is a certain arbitrage there is a certain Erler early mover advantage, by all means, but there's also something to be said about consistently showing up and doing a solid job and patience. I mean, this is the other part of it. Right? Because they think part of our kind of overnight Amazon, you know, Ubers, three minutes away, it lulls us into the sense that our results should be the same. And when that pattern doesn't follow, it can be jarring. But I think that's that's what differentiates really good companies from their competitors, they are consistent, and they're always making progress. I think the biggest challenge that I kind of see in the landscape right now is paralysis by analysis, you know, especially this year you see it, the uncertainty is palpable. But the way people respond by not doing anything or just kicking, kicking the ball further down the field, it just in every generic area, I think that's really the worst thing because not making a decision to steal a decision. Great.

Kenneth Kinney 18:41

Well, part of that also is gotten so accelerated in the digital age. And I know, I've heard you on a podcast or something talking about differentiation, but with that first mover advantage, and then everybody moves in that direction. How do you sort of look at differentiating yourself today in the digital age in doing that, to at least develop your own unique flavor that the competition will ultimately try to copy but you can still own your own

Shama Hyder 19:08

creativity, right, which is the the short answer to that is you have to be more creative, to be able to keep your edge I think in a world of AI and again, information and noise, that creativity is what really, really stands out that here's the thing about creativity that we love to talk about, but we don't necessarily embrace. It's risky. And do you know what that means? That means that not all your ideas are amazing, are going to hit the mark. So it's so funny because you know, we like talking about creativity. But we don't talk about being here in part of creativity, which is risk you there is an element of risk because that that's the nature of creative work. And I think so many brands are afraid of risk because they want everything to be, you know, knocked out of the park, and it just doesn't work that way. Listen, I'm very prolific on LinkedIn. Then we do a lot of LinkedIn marketing and advocacy and thought leadership work with the C suite. And in b2b, obviously, LinkedIn is a huge platform. But what I find fascinating about the LinkedIn platform is, you know, I post almost every day, five days a week, right? I'm thoughts, ideas, whatever I'm sharing things. What I find fascinating is sometimes the things that I think are so smart are like, this is so cool, like this post is going to do so well tanks. And then post that I just didn't necessarily think were so great. But it was something I wanted to say are worth sharing. Those are the posts that do really well. And I'm not even talking about the algorithm, because we know, right, right wing media, we know how the algorithm works, we keep up with it, I get that aspect. But even that aside, you don't know which idea is going to be a hit, and which is going to be mediocre, and which is going to be a bust. But that is the nature of creative work. And that's why I said it requires consistency. And continuously trying things and putting it out there. And not worrying about each you know, it caught like posting ghost posts something, feel good about it, and ghost and don't worry necessarily about the reactions.

Kenneth Kinney 21:12

Well, I'm gonna come back to LinkedIn in just a second. But I wanted to ask you one more that applies really to the the clients that we all serve, but talking about why you think loyalty is a lie, and what people should focus on.

Shama Hyder 21:25

Yeah, so loyalty is a lie. They say this, because you know, sometimes people will focus on loyalty, the cost of acquisition. And there's, there's a lot of studies, but I'll just talk about one from LinkedIn, again, they do so much research on this topic. And to be fair, LinkedIn has the most professional data right in the world, arguably, they know who's at which job what. So if you're in the professional world, you're chances are in the Western world, you're on LinkedIn, and you and they have info on you. So their study, they did the study, and it's so fascinating, we found that 40% of all their members, every three years, move in the workforce, by title, right, but also industry. So think about that 40% of people are constantly moving industry direction, jobs. And then you add to that the layer now which people aren't, you know, side hustles, and freelancing, all consulting, all this sort of stuff. And it really speeds that up. So if you're focused on on loyalty, and in this, you know, I gotta get this meet at the cost of acquisition. And your this is why also, I think, you know, being able to tell the broader story, even if you're a b2b, making sure that your brand is well established outside your customers and respected by that outside your customers become so important, right? Because you're 40% mean, you the data will show you 40% of folks that you're talking to right now that you're trying to get to be loyal to you. In three years, we'll switch careers and industries, and there'll be a whole new cohort. So

Kenneth Kinney 23:03

well, one last thing I wanted, I wanted to touch on that you bring up as well, you mentioned it earlier with leads and costs. But if we were to look at lowering CPA cost per acquisition, what advice would you give a business today as to how they go about doing that?

Shama Hyder 23:19

There's so many factors right in?

Kenneth Kinney 23:21

It's such a loaded question. We could talk for about 20 hours on?

Shama Hyder 23:25

Yeah, here's what I would say, cost per acquisition has gone up, it's gone up across the board, T Mobile just lead a 5000 people. And in in there in the letter from the CEO, he talks about he said, cost for acquisition has gone up tremendously. And that's that you can see it with Netflix, you can see what everybody's facing the same thing, because the advantage of the internet is over. And it's not to say it's not an advantage is tool. It's a platform, obviously we you know, I just think it's funny, because we still call it digital. And I'm like, But today our lives are so intertwined. We don't even think about it sort of separately. But yeah, I mean, I think that's the biggest part of it is the arbitrage that you had with social media, like Facebook ads, if you ran Facebook ads, you know, a couple of years ago, five years ago, it was tremendous. You just don't get that ROI today. Same thing. If you were one of the early movers of the internet, you had a tremendous Vantage, welcome to competition. It's no longer right, like secret sauce. So in that way you have to continue to evolve to but I think that's important to note is when you say I want to bring down cost of acquisition, you have to look at this across the board and say, but am I trying to compare this to my numbers 10 years ago, right or five years ago? And then of course, there's a lot to be said about brand because a lot of times when people have just been running ads, and those ads keep getting expensive, then they wonder why they're paying so much. It's because you haven't done anything in brand, which isn't, which is a longer term payoff, but it's important. And so it's I think that's also kind of fast. stating, as people tend to get stuck on, you know, just if you put all your money in advertising and you've never built that brand, there comes a time where you pay the piper. Now the companies that we see who invested in brand performance that have a very much more holistic approach to how they look at marketing. Now that's very different. And they they succeed because they, you know, they're, they've maximized, and they have made their cost per acquisition that much more optimal because people know who they are.

Kenneth Kinney 25:30

Alright, well Shama I ask everyone who appears on the show and you're in one of my favorite places, or near one of my favorite places to dive. What is your favorite kind of shark and why do you have any shark stories?

Shama Hyder 25:41

Well, I've never been stumped on a question before on a podcast.

Kenneth Kinney 25:46

This is usually the oddest question that people get asked. So...

Shama Hyder 25:50

I will see my favorite shark is a hammerhead shark.

Kenneth Kinney 25:54

And again, differentiation.

Shama Hyder 25:57

Here's here's why. It's because it's my four year old son's favorite shark and that's the only name that he's he's a big shark and he says this is a hammerhead shark and he runs around with it. So, so I'm gonna go with that. Now, I know nothing about hammerhead sharks. Now not nearly as much as I do, but all these other things we talked about, but yes, that's, that's my final answer. It's a hammerhead shark. Yes, good. Well,

Kenneth Kinney 26:21

you can't find them between Jupiter and Bimini at a certain time of the year you can find a great deal of, of hammerheads. Especially great hammerheads are amazing. See, closer to Bimini. But anyway, we'll share it. It's that special time in the show? Are you ready for the five most interesting and important questions that you're going to be asked today? Go for it. All right, you wrote a book about Zen marketing, and social media. But let's talk a little bit about Zen. From a Zen perspective, would you rather have a Zen garden or do aromatherapy? What makes you feel better? Hmm.

Shama Hyder 26:56

So does that have social media marketing is what you're talking about? Yeah, that was my first book. Aromatherapy. I just I something about good sense.

Kenneth Kinney 27:07

Yeah, I agree. Smell the beach. Number two. All right, is do which do you enjoy more? Being a speaker, a keynote speaker or a CEO? Oh, granted, I don't want to overcomplicate that, because I don't want your employees know that you love them. But what do you....

Shama Hyder 27:26

The keynote speaking part for sure. Because it's just so so amazing to be able to touch so many lives in a very short amount of time and be able to see it right. So what is the CEO, the things that you're doing a lot of the decisions you take, you don't see the impact for 18 months down the road, if not longer. As a keynote speaker when I get off stage, and, you know, I get messages where people waiting off stage and saying, Wow, you really got me to think about something differently. That's so powerful. So yeah, I would say in terms of like, instant gratification or much more immediate gratification. Yes, speaking.

Kenneth Kinney 27:57

Alright. Number three, because I read that you've done this. Would you rather share the stage with the Dalai Lama or Barack Obama?

Shama Hyder 28:07

Oh, um, you know,

Kenneth Kinney 28:10

There's no wrong answer in that.

Shama Hyder 28:12

Yeah. Yeah. I'll just say, I'll just say, I'll say ex President Obama.

Kenneth Kinney 28:19

Okay. Fair enough. All right. Number four, would you rather go to Key West or to the Rockies?

Shama Hyder 28:26

The Rockies?

Kenneth Kinney 28:27

Okay, fair enough. All right. Number five. And the most important question that you're going to be asked today? Is biscuits or cornbread?

Shama Hyder 28:36

Cornbread, like the sweet kind.

Kenneth Kinney 28:38

Fair enough. All right. So Shama, where can people find out more about you more about your company, about your speaking, where to follow you on social and a lot more?

Shama Hyder 28:50

Yeah I would say for anybody listening here or can LinkedIn is probably a good safe poison. And I'm there quite a bit. And certainly you can find me at Shama hyder.com. And, of course, the agency we talked about, which is Zen Media.

Kenneth Kinney 29:05

Shama, thank you again for being with us today on A Shark's Perspective.

Shama Hyder 29:09

Thanks for having me Kenneth.

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Kenneth Kinney 29:16

So there was my conversation with Shama Hyder, the CEO of Zen Media, a digital age strategist, a best selling author, and a keynote speaker. Let's take a look at three key takeaways from a conversation with her.

Kenneth Kinney 29:27

First, love to call up this reminder, whenever I hear about building your personal brand, jobs are short and careers are long. A lot of people simply think that building a brand is for those who want to be influencers of sorts. That's just one viewpoint. For most, the main angle is for how you are known, especially with employers or your community, those that may hire you to do something, anything but remember, you're planting seeds that take time to grow. One branch of that tree is your social media. Another is that promotion. But most of the leaves on that tree are trust capability performance. humility and more. Never forget those qualities first, you'll grow more, and so will your brand.

Kenneth Kinney 30:05

Second, selling in the digital age, there's so many great points, including that consumers continue to change and the nice to haves are now necessities. She added that the advantage of the internet is over. So if you were hesitant about any of those digital channels that at least give that another thought because you're just getting passed by on that information superhighway as the kids like to call it.

Kenneth Kinney 30:25

Third, her advice on outperform your competition and I love it is playing the long game. There's so much of a rush and people jumping to the new shiny objects in the digital age. But showing up over and over again helps you consistently differentiate to your customer. Seriously, think how often your competition doesn't show up and deliver every time over delivering sadly as consistently delivery. Generally, your customers will let you know that's what they're seeking someone who will consistently deliver for them.

Kenneth Kinney 30:53

Got a question? Send me an email to Kenneth at a shark's perspective.com.

Kenneth Kinney 30:58

Thank you again for the privilege of your time and I'm so thankful to everyone who listens.

Kenneth Kinney 31:02

Find your zen today and don't forget to join us on the next episode of A Shark's Perspective.

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