****Please forgive any and all transcription errors as this was transcribed by Otter.ai.****

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Kenneth Kinney 0:16

Hello and welcome back to A Shark's Perspective.

Kenneth Kinney 0:18

Like any other medium podcasting is evolving, figuring out what's next, though, in how to reach the next wave of listeners is the goal. Are we at peak today? Is this as good as it gets? Really? What does the research tell us? Tom Webster is a market researcher, podcaster speaker and the Vice President of Strategy and marketing at Edison Research, a market research firm, who is also the leading podcast research company in the world.

Kenneth Kinney 0:44

And on this episode, we'll discuss podcasting and audio, what's the next frontier and also how to reach that next audience, the infinite dial keynoting and freedom being Spotify, whether or not we're at peak rookie listeners, Podcast Movement, Jimmy Buffett, Pat Flynn, and a lot, lot more. So let's tune into a senior market researcher with a very research marketing shark on this episode of A Shark's Perspective.

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Kenneth Kinney 1:14

All right, Tom, thank you so much for joining us today on a shark's perspective. If you would tell people a little bit about your background and your career today, please.

Tom Webster 1:21

Yeah, so I'm a market researcher by trade, I've been one for nearly 25 years 15 of those at Edison Research. And most of my most of my day job at Edison is about consumer insights and solving business problems. And then lately, I have stumbled into quite a career in audio, we do a lot of audio research at Edison too. So I'm, basically head up the digital audio practice and Edison, which includes podcasting and streaming and even audio books.

Kenneth Kinney 1:54

What do you consider yourself more of as a marketer or as a researcher?

Tom Webster 1:59

I consider myself a researcher, I think, you know, I, I guess I do a lot of what passes for marketing from Edison. But I think mostly, you know, we're a very inbound thought leadership driven company, I like to think that we do we do quality work, and that tends to market us for us, I think. So I think I'm more of an accidental marketer than than anything else. But I've learned a few things along the way.

Kenneth Kinney 2:25

Well, an accidental podcaster as well, you've, you've had a pretty successful podcast over the careers with a marketing companion. And now with a free note, or which I think is fantastic. Tell us a little bit about what the impetus was for that, because that's, that exists for so many people who are speaking all the time, who just want to get their word out there without necessarily thinking they're gonna make, you know, 1020 grand on a keynote speech?

Tom Webster 2:49

Yeah, I mean, my primary impetus behind doing the free notre was, you know, a a creative outlet and be just just the chance to spend some more time with my wife, who you've had on the show. So it's not it's certainly not a chore doing the show. But we we got the idea, just kind of thinking about it, I do a lot of free noting, I will just to explain your listeners. A free note is someone who speaks for free, which, if you go to any big conference, that's you know, they may have two or three celebrity paid keynoters. But then the days are filled with breakout session after breakout session of people slaving away trotting the boards, giving breakout sessions and talks for for no money in the hopes of driving some business for their company without looking like they're selling from the stage. And we realized that there weren't really a lot of resources for people like that there are plenty of resources on just how to be a better speaker. Yes. And there are also resources for professional speakers on getting gigs and things but the the peculiar craft of representing your company from the stage, there weren't a lot of resources on so that's, that's what the free note is all about?

Kenneth Kinney 4:02

Well, so you're also spending a lot of time you know, we're not going to go political, with all the stuff going on today, especially today, when we're recording this. But you're also spending a lot of time on political research. What does that sort of looking like for 2020.

Tom Webster 4:17

So we are the sole providers of exit polling data and also vote count data for the major news networks. So on starting with the starting with the Iowa caucus, and all the way through the general election next year, whenever you see exit polling data on regardless of the of the network that you're watching that exit poll data comes from us. And it's a gargantuan effort. I know I just I posted a picture on my Twitter feed a couple of days ago of a crate of mechanical pencils that were sent that we are shipping out to all of the people doing Expo for us and it's you've never seen so many pencils in your life there had there had to have been a million pencils in that box. So it's a huge lift. just typical effort, it's, we've, we've been the sole providers of exit polling in this country since 2003. So it's, it's, it's a sacred charge. It's a job that we we take very, very seriously. And when we have a good night, you do not hear our name. Yeah.

Kenneth Kinney 5:19

Well, are you seeing that it's becoming a lot easier, a lot more difficult today, to gather all of that. And I love to believe that it's so much easier always to gather that data. But it's, there's bias on how to read the data correctly as well.

Tom Webster 5:34

Well, everything as bias sharp, I mean, any, any survey, I mean, essentially, an exit poll is a survey like any other survey, we're fortunate with exit polling, know that the response rates are very, very high. When we, when we ask people, if they would take an exit poll, our response rates are in the 40s. And, you know, compare that to the last time you sent to, you know, send a survey out to your email database, do that math, if you got to 1%. He's laughing. So our response rates are great. The there's always different forms of bias. And we track and model, dozens and dozens of variables. When we're doing the exit poll, we track the race, age and sex of the interviewers that are that are conducting the exit polls, to see if there's a hidden bias there. You know, we we have data on certain groups being more reluctant than others to take an exit poll. And so all of that gets modeled. But ultimately, we've never missed a projection. Some, you know, some things maybe we couldn't project, but we've never gone out with something wrong. And I think that's probably why we we still, we keep getting hired.

Kenneth Kinney 6:45

So a lot of your research over the last year plus has been around podcasting. I've read quite a few of your different posts. Out of curiosity, do you think the interest more of the interest has emerged in podcasting over the last fairly recent timeframe? Is it because of the money pouring into podcasting? I know SNL made a joke about podcasting. So we're starting to see a little more people understanding what podcasting is, and so on and so forth. But why do you think there's more of an interest in podcasting today? Because it's what I mean, were we talking 1520 years now that this that well, almost 15 years now that podcasting has really been strong?

Tom Webster 7:23

Yeah, 15. And we've actually been tracking it at Edison for 14 of those 15 years. So we have been collecting and presenting that data for for a very long time, we've served this space. Sure, but really, the last three, have been markedly different to the previous 12. And not so much in adoption and consumption, because that's always been a slow build. I mean, every year that we've reported it, we started recording it in 2006. Every year that we've reported, it's gone up a little bit, it's never shot up like YouTube or, or online video did, it's never shot up, you know, with sort of an extreme growth curve. It's just it adds a little bit every year. And it continues to do that over the last year, we didn't see the largest percentage point growth that we've seen. But I think you sort of hit it on the head shard with with the money thing, there's been more interest in the space and some of that interest, I think, was triggered by cereal. I think when cereal became a phenomenon. A lot of media outlets and advertising and marketing publications started to cover it. It's not that it brought millions and millions of new listeners into the space. But it brought some recognition amongst the the digerati, the chattering classes to take a look at it as a potential advertising platform. And, you know, we've done a lot of brand lift research for a lot of the podcast networks at Edison, where we look at how well brand advertising and things like that do on podcasts, and the results are extraordinarily positive. So it's not surprising that there's a lot more money being poured into the space. And when you pour that money into the space. With it comes an obligation to make that money back. And with that obligation to make that money back. You're seeing a lot more mass appeal mainstream content being produced, and that's really expanding the reach of podcasting. The other thing that has been a more an even more recent phenomenon, and it's big enough that they can be singled out here is Spotify, Spotify really made a major push into podcasting for real this time last summer. And it's it's had a definite impact there. Now, you know, clearly the number two podcast clients in terms of playing and in certain age groups, they're, they're teetering on number one, they they certainly have attracted a lot more younger people to the space so those have been really the biggest changes.

Kenneth Kinney 9:55

Well, I was just gonna say I think I have I have seen such a remarkable probably higher number of people that reach out to me now wanting to pour money into the advertising of the show, which I've stayed away from, for a lot of different reasons to date. Now, by the time this airs, I may change my mind. But the number you buy Exactly. But it's, it's amazing how many offers I'm getting today. And I'm nearly at show 200. Now, so I'm, like, I've just started this. But there is, I started seeing a little bit of it at about 100, the the noise started a lot of at 150. And now it's just it's, you know, getting offers every day. And it's What scares me is just the fact that we've done as much as we could as marketers, and advertisers to destroy pretty much every channel with too much advertising. And it just seems like podcasting is the, the next bastion of despair, if you will, with wherever we can pour as many ads in as possible. So yeah, it's really frustrating, because, you know, it just depends on the medium as well. But I'm curious what your take is on podcasts when we get a little bit deeper into the data. But, you know, I'm also seeing a little bit of a tick up, I think that's creating better types of content, I'll give you a couple of examples. GE came out with the messenger and SAP came out with searching for sell IE, and they were fictional stories that were not purely trying to sell a product or service, they had some advertising on the back end, but searching for selling e won the 2019 content award, I believe podcast content award at Content Marketing World. And it was a podcast that was fiction based. It talked about Leonardo da Vinci. And it just so happened that SAP was introducing a new product called Leonardo. So you know, they were doing some advertising on the back end, but they were doing more of a fiction, or a non sales version of a sales brochure for a product and service. And that was nice to see. But you're also seeing I think a lot of that where podcasters are learning to be RC podcasters or brands are learning to be more clever with how they present that kind of content.

Tom Webster 12:09

Yeah, I mean, what's happening really is that the space is it's growing up. And as it grows up, it's it's beginning to develop multiple streams of revenue. And it's, you know, it's not one or the other. It's it's all of them. And that's what's going to keep the space healthy and vibrant. I mean, the space really began and advertising as a direct response channel. Exactly, you know, performance marketing. And in the past three years, we've seen a lot more brand advertising, but branded podcasts like your, like the ones that you're speaking about. There's some really compelling ones out there. I know my friend Steve Pratt is with has a company Pacific content out in Vancouver. And they just won an award for the the branded podcast they produced for face for Facebook, three and a half degrees. Yeah, there's a great, yeah. So there's wonderful branded content out there. And I think the key to it, is to build a great show first agree, because a show about product is a pretty lousy show.

Kenneth Kinney 13:04

Agreed. And I've done direct response for a long time. So I know I so glad that you brought that up that it was originally done that way. But I'm glad it's not done, or shouldn't be done that way. On the front end, I'm glad that at least people are starting to focus on creating great shows first. Anyway, let's dive into your data. kind of unpack if you will, a little bit about how you look at rookies, and veterans who are listening to the podcast themselves.

Tom Webster 13:30

Yeah, this was a, I gave a keynote at Podcast Movement in 2018. And I challenge the attendees to really think about the concept of the show. Because what got podcasting here is not going to get us to the next 50 million or 100 million listeners because they're different people. You know, originally, if you started listening to podcasting, to podcasts when I did or perhaps when you did, you there was some interest in the technology, there was some there was definitely some interest in the content, because you're able to find content that you couldn't find anywhere else. And it was also just kind of a cool thing to do. But you know, the next 50 million listeners, they don't really care about that. Right? That's that's not necessarily why they're coming to podcasting. They're watching the top 10 Nielsen rated shows on TV, and they're not necessarily finding that content in podcasting. So my point was that, to get the next batch of listeners, we have to think like that next batch of listeners. So this year, we went back to the Podcast Movement, Edison gave the research keynote again. And we did a project where we looked at rookies and veterans with rookies being people who had discovered podcasting, just in the last six months, and veterans for at least three years or more. And functionally, most of them were greater than five years. And I think if I could sum up the differences, really, really simply it's this. I think veterans seek out content. They're looking for that next podcast, they're getting recommendations. They're, they're using podcast clients to find other podcasts, rookies are more likely to encounter content than to seek it. And they're, they're encountering it in the wild, they're encountering it on Facebook, on Instagram. They're on Spotify, and a lot on YouTube. And so their their perception of what a podcast is and can be is somewhat different, you know, and there's no bigger example of that than the Joe Rogan show, Joe Rogan. Our data shows that that's the most listened to podcast in America in terms of reach. And that's may or may not be true if you just look at his downloads, but you have to factor in all the YouTube views, which probably equal this downloads, and all of these other platforms. And, you know, I suppose there are some technocrats that that can be persnickety about the definition of a podcast, but I'm just encouraged that we're getting all of these new listeners. So I'm not in the business of talking somebody out of whether or not they're listening to a podcast if they watch it on YouTube.

Kenneth Kinney 16:02

Yeah, and you know, Joe's not I mean, he's not a junior person, either. I mean, he's, he's in his late 40s, I believe, early 50s, early 50s or early 50s. Yeah, I mean, but But you put Elon Musk, you know, smoking marijuana, and then it ends up on the world news. It drives young and old to start listening to more podcasts listens. And I like his show, I still haven't figured out why it's number one. But if you get that kind of PR and the kind of guests he gets winded, I guess I understand why. But you also uncovered I thought it was really interesting information you uncovered was the female versus male breakout. And I mean, I, you know, just if you look at the, the emotion that goes behind so many of the female podcasts, I really think they they have a leg up on us because some of the female podcasts are extremely powerful, as well as they are. Many of them are informative, but talk a little bit about the change you're starting to see with females versus males in podcasting.

Tom Webster 17:02

Well, when podcasting first started, it was you know, the average podcast was two white dudes talking about internet routers, yeah. And with again, with all of the money and attention brought into the space, there's, you know, the onus is on the podcast industry to be diverse to have content for everybody, really. And as we are starting to see more new listeners come in, the rookies are actually more likely to be female. And, you know, I wouldn't necessarily point to the sex of podcast hosts here, I would point to genres and types of content. And there are and there are differences here. And one of the biggest, biggest genres in podcasting is, is true crime. True Crime is the catnip of podcasting right now. And, and that's a genre that happens to have huge female appeal. So as more and more research is done on listeners, and there's a bigger concerted effort by podcast networks to to reflect the the fabric of America, both in terms of gender and also ethnicity, then, you know, it's going to normalize and it is starting to approach the US population in terms of age and sex.

Kenneth Kinney 18:16

Well, our friend, Rand Fishkin, I've heard him make this joke a couple of times about how if you're a white male in your 40s, then, you know, by law, you have to have your own podcast. But I think it's really interesting just to see the fact that women have a she caste movement that a friend of mine went to, and some some of the podcasts that they're doing are really impressive. But talk a little bit about the listening to the entire podcast, this is one that I think really just surprises me more and more and more, because, you know, I tend to set it and forget it, and listen to a whole show. I guess some of that depends on traffic. But I really thought that was fascinating. Your research on that, if you will? Yeah, I mean,

Tom Webster 18:56

rookies indicated that they were less likely to listen to the entire show. And I think that's a stat that can easily be misinterpreted. You know, when I first revealed that stat to some veteran podcasters they interpreted it as rookies having a shorter attention span. Being flighty, and I don't I don't think that's correct. The early listeners to podcasters they were really into podcasts. There are a lot of tech podcasts that people really were into the content. And but the people that were attracting now, right, their choice is, I could watch Netflix tonight, or I could listen to a podcast. And the reason why they are not necessarily as likely to listen to an entire podcast is because their standards are high, not because their attention span is low. And there aren't a lot of great podcasts out there. There's a lot of crappy podcasts out there. And when we're talking about this new rookie incoming crop of podcast listeners, they expect really high quality broad concept well produced content because that's what they're used to consuming. And what a podcast doesn't deliver that. It's it's more of a turnoff than it is to the earlier generation of podcast listeners. So I, I don't look this look upon this in any way, as something that denigrates the rookies I, I really look at it more as the kind of the state of content.

Kenneth Kinney 20:14

So when you're this is kind of a personal question for you now as a podcaster, with Tamsin, with the information you have, how does it inform you to make a better podcast on your own? Well,

Tom Webster 20:25

I, I really tried to put on a show. And it's something that I talk about all the time. I mean, if you've, if you've listened to the freenode, or, you know, we, we attempt to create an entertainment, right? There's, there's music, there's production values. There's humor, I mean, that's certainly one of the hallmarks of the show that I used to do with Mark Schaefer, the marketing companion, we, we wanted to put on a show and, you know, we would often script a funny bit, just the intro alone. Oh, Scott, my, these intros are pure goal. So because I think, you know, and I think this is something to think about, if you are a company, work for a company, you're listening to this and you're thinking about a podcast, you know, if let's say you're, you make tires, okay? Your competition is not other podcasts about tire Exactly. Your competition is This American Life, your competition, you know who your competition is Joe Rogan. And that may seem unfair, but I think you have at least, you at least have the responsibility to, to try to put on a show

Kenneth Kinney 21:35

where you can inject a lot of thought leadership, it just doesn't have to be too boring experts at your company. You know, reciting brand babble. People don't want to hear that. They want to be entertained. So

Tom Webster 21:48

yeah, and I, whenever I talk to companies about about doing a podcast, I try to talk them out of it, like I push really, really hard on it. Because it's a different dog than the other kind of marketing channels that you put out there. The one great thing about the podcast audience, they are an incredibly engaged, devoted audience, a podcast, I think, aggregates that most engaged 10% of your I think of your existing base, and, and provides a deeper level of, of contact and connection with them. And it's a wonderful tool for that. It's not a great tool to build reach. I don't think it's to build a new, a completely new audience. That certainly takes a long time. And podcasting.

Kenneth Kinney 22:31

Well, it does help as well, when you have the voice you do. I know my biggest fear when I do a podcast is whether or not I'm battling a sinus infection. And I've done radio, I've, I've done radio throughout my years, but you know, to have the, the deep tone to a voice like you have, I mean, you have a voice made for podcasting. So if anything, I think that obviously really helps the, the, the listening value of it. So one of the other bits that you talked about, as well with how Spotify, you know, got into the mix more and I Heart Radio is getting more into it. Everybody seems to be getting more into it a little bit a little bit about the ways that people are listening to podcasts, because I think so many people just think it's, you know, Apple podcasts, you know, which really didn't even rebrand itself as Apple podcasts until was at the end of 2018 or versus 2019. I can't remember but yeah, 2018 Yeah. So it that that was just a shift. That's not that long ago.

Tom Webster 23:29

I still hear podcasts, current podcasts, some big ones. Talk about subscribing to us on iTunes, no longer exists. So yeah, I think they, you know, 10 years ago, I think the the Kree ticker of the Podcast Producer was to get everybody to subscribe to them on iTunes. And there are now I think there's three problems with that sentence. Now, number one, there's no iTunes. Number two, it's, every time I see someone's podcast stats, and they are heavily Apple centric. It's a it's a cry for help. There's a lot more Android phones out there. Yeah. And, and also, that goal, I think of, you know, get them to subscribe. It's it's a nice goal. I think it worked in the early days of podcasting. But it's, I think you sort of have to, and I made the point in the keynote that I gave it a podcast a little bit about this. You have to be able to if not monetized and then love them where they are where they found you. Because people are finding podcasts and all kinds of places. They're finding them on SoundCloud. They're finding them on YouTube, they're finding them on Instagram, and you're not necessarily going to be able to corral them into one neat little platform. So you have to figure it out. You have to figure out from a metric standpoint, how to count all of that. And you also have to you also have to make make it worth being on all of those platforms and, and have and find the value in that for you, without making the audience change their behavior because they're in control you never have been?

Kenneth Kinney 25:09

Well, there's something you just said that sparked my memory from from reading that article, your manifesto in 2018. But also made me think about, there's no, you know, it's kind of like social media in general, there's no one formula, either that anybody can or should necessarily replicate, there's just too much noise about you personally, or you your brand or, you know, whatever company you're working for, as to whether or not that's going to work. So, I mean, I know a lot of the being the fundamentals of being where the people are, is one thing, and then, you know, creating the kind of content that people want to listen to, is so different. And maybe they want to listen to something different on a website than they do on Apple podcasts or an Android as well. I mean, there are different ways that we can soom TV and video, you know, and that's something I think about a lot today of just how that's being, I don't know, mechanized, once we create the content so

Tom Webster 26:08

well, and I think podcasters are, are getting better and better. I mean, I think every new podcaster that enters the space comes in with with some of the knowledge from the old, but also a desire to get better. And I think, you know, people that have been in podcasting for a very long time have this kind of received wisdom about what a podcast is supposed to do and sound like and, and I don't know that I buy that. Because, again, the audience is changing. And if we're going to reach new people, and I think really explore the true power of what this medium is, which I believe is a universal behavior. You know, it's got a goofy word. But it's really just, I want to listen to what I want to wear and when I want, and that's the behavior that is enabled. And that's a universal behavior. But I think we have to kind of forget some of that received wisdom of the early 2000s. And, you know, and look at who's killing it right now. So that's a big part of it.

Kenneth Kinney 27:10

Well, Pat Flynn, and I'm probably going to state this incorrectly. But Pat Flynn brought up some point, I believe, at Podcast Movement in 2018. I think I remember reading about it might have been 2019. But it was about how he thought the space was too crowded. You know, if you hadn't made it by now, you weren't necessarily going to make it. Does that ring a bell with you at all? And yeah,

Tom Webster 27:35

I Well, I like Pat, I'm going to disagree with him pretty strongly here. I've heard this a lot in the space that it's, you know, repeat podcasts. There are too many podcasts. There aren't too many podcasts. There are a lot of there are a lot of bad podcasts. I know. Daniel Lewis at the audacity to podcast, tracks, a lot of things from Apple's API and things like that. And he just posted this week that Apple now has 800,000 podcasts. Right? That's, that's the extent of the podcast universe is 800,000 podcasts for all time, right? Last year, alone, there were over a million self published books. I think we if if I've said this before, if we are at peak podcasting now than we hit peak book back in 1855, I don't think we're at peak anything. I think, I think what you're seeing are people that have been in podcasting, back when there was not a lot, a lot of noise in the space and did well, now having the scrap for it. And now having to really fight for the year balls, that used to be a little bit easier to collect. Because there's a lot of really good content out there right now. And you've got a lot of, you know, these newcomers to the space that you know, if you've been podcasting for a while, maybe you see it as noise or whatever, but they're making really compelling content. Yeah. Yeah, we've, yeah, good. Well,

Kenneth Kinney 29:04

I'm just gonna say I'm a marketer. I'm not a podcaster but I've done several podcasts over the years having done radio I mean, I sort of think this goes all the way back to Christian Slater and pump up the volume and be what it was like pirate radio back then back in the 90s. I mean, to me that's kind of how some of the impetus for this started this whole movement started people just wanted to put out what they wanted to say in a place where they could consume it and you know, not get arrested for it like like he was doing but I I don't know that. You know, how much of this really matters unless somebody's really fighting for ad dollars half the time and I and I'm, I'm really curious how do the people at Podcast Movement and again, I'm not I do a podcast like you do, but I don't know that cuz I don't consider myself necessarily a podcaster.

Tom Webster 29:54

Do people want to chose to the tank?

Kenneth Kinney 29:57

I know but I'm enjoying talking about Marketing and Advertising and trying to help people solve problems. Because I've got a few gray hairs. I've failed many times. So I try to put out helpful information from people like you, you know from the guest I've been very lucky to have on like Tamsin and Handley. You know, Guy Kawasaki, Martin Lindstrom all these, you know, amazing people that are that know their stuff, like you see if it helps us solve problems. And that's what I feel like I'm spending time doing. But I'm curious, do people in the Podcast Movement, see your research as something that's helping them? Are they defensive about it? What's What's the movement, if you will, opinion on the researcher bringing today?

Tom Webster 30:42

I think it's been overwhelmingly positive. I mean, the one thing and you know, we've been honored to be asked to give the reasonable keynote for three years in a row. I, you know, the reaction from the space has really been universally positive. And I think, no small part of that is that we have been serving the space for 14 years, right. So back when people were really struggling and trying to make money and trying to put together media kits, they, they had our research, they had our research to put in and and and it's the most credible research in the space, frankly. So I think there's always been that kind of respect. And, you know, people might be surprised by numbers, they might quibble with them. I think some of that is maybe just a lack of familiarity with with the kinds of numbers that we produce, and things like that. You know, I'll give you a funny example. I spoke at a conference in Amsterdam, a couple of years ago. And I showed a statistic about, you know, where people listen to podcasts the most, and the number one location, year after year is home, by a lot. Yeah. And, you know, this should make intuitive sense, because, number one, most people can't listen to podcasts at work, you know, most of us they work in a toll booth or something. I mean, it's a very lean forward activity to listen to a podcast. And the technology to listen to podcasts without friction in vehicles, turns over pretty slowly. You know, we we buy a new car every 10 years. So that that takes some time. So I I presented this chart and Amsterdam, and a, a functioning professional human stood up and disputed it saying that everybody listens to podcasts on bikes, and not at home. Everybody listens to them on their on their commute. And I looked at it and I said, but you're in Amsterdam, yeah. It's hard for people to kind of see the label of the jar. They're in.

Kenneth Kinney 32:40

Very, very true. But she was Dutch. So that explains it. So by the way, that was a completely loaded question, because I knew you had provided that research. So I was assuming that they hadn't invited you back not once, but twice. If they didn't love you, but put your prognosticator hat on where, if you were to pull out your magic eight ball to get the prognostication on where podcasting will go, based on the research you've done, what do you predict for the near term future of podcasting?

Tom Webster 33:11

I'm, well, you've invited a market researcher on Shark. So now get ready to get unloaded upon. I don't predict anything. I think it's my it is my job to be a reliable discerner of the present. And that's what I that's what I focus on. I think anytime I get caught up in predicting, then I have a dog in the fight. And if I have a dog in the fight, then it changes the way you look at numbers. I don't I just don't do it.

Kenneth Kinney 33:39

No, that's fantastic. So I could not agree more. I'm also at the opinion that most predictions for any year ahead, which I just did on another radio podcast show this morning will be completely wrong and just hopefully nobody will listen to it in February. So you know, but I totally respect for that. So Tom, you're in the Boston area. Your Bruins occasionally play the sharks, but we're talking about different sharks on A Shark's Perspective. I've I've asked this question of your wife before on a previous episode. What is your favorite kind of shark and why?

Tom Webster 34:12

What is my favorite kind of shark and why?

Kenneth Kinney 34:14

I wondered if Tamsen had warmed warned?

Tom Webster 34:15

You are not know I am completely unprepared. completely unprepared for this question. Okay, but I'm gonna say it's a land shark lager.

Kenneth Kinney 34:23

Good man, one of the few people I can get that understand that beer with Coronas aren't available. Land sharks the way to go. It's making Jimmy Buffett $1 Every time we say it to so absolutely. And I'm sure he needs the dollars. Exactly. Well, Thomas that special time of the show. Are you ready for the five most interesting and important questions you're gonna be asked today? Bring it on. Alright, number one, Apple, or Spotify.

Tom Webster 34:54

I'm gonna, they're both clients. So I'm gonna say yes, I'm gonna say yes and

Kenneth Kinney 34:59

Okay, good. Fair enough. Number two New England Clam Chowder in some fresh lobster followed by fresh lobster from Legal Seafood, or a Fenway Frank and a Sam Adams at a Red Sox game.

Tom Webster 35:12

The lobster 100% Really I grew up in Maine, like oh, there you go. Yeah. Forget it makes again it makes sense. Number one, even though it's been a hot dog,

Kenneth Kinney 35:22

I'm sure it's leftover parts of lobster we don't want in a lobster. I'll tell you that. Number three fictional podcasts like true crime or nonfiction educational podcasts like what we're doing now.

Tom Webster 35:37

I lean towards the latter. But I also listened to a lot of audiobooks. So there's a lot of fiction, a lot of fiction in my life and the lines between the two blur.

Kenneth Kinney 35:44

A great number four is a research question for you. email survey, or phone questionnaire,

Tom Webster 35:51

phone questionnaire and why so Yeah, still higher response rates still more representative. For the infinite dial, which is our flagship media behavior study, we we every year, we increase the percentage of mobile phone interviews, which are about four times as expensive as landline interviews, but you have to do it, it's over half mobile phone now. It's still it is still the gold standard for Survey Research, and no one should tell you differently.

Kenneth Kinney 36:17

Number five, and the most important question that you're going to be asked today is biscuits or cornbread.

Tom Webster 36:24

You know, I spent 10 years of my life in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. And I know everybody has their their their sort of restaurant or recipe of choice, but the sunrise biscuit kitchen in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, it's about the best makes about the best damn biscuit you'll ever have. So let's get 100% Good, man.

Kenneth Kinney 36:43

So Tom, where can people find out more about you follow your thought leadership, the research you're doing it Addison here, are you speaking more?

Tom Webster 36:51

Sure. So I'm on Twitter at webby. 2001 web d y 2001. I think I'm on medium that way too, which is where I post so my infrequent longer pieces. And our research is all available at Edison research.com.

Kenneth Kinney 37:05

Tom, thank you so much for being with me today on A Shark's Perspective.

Tom Webster 37:09

My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

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Kenneth Kinney 37:16

So that was my conversation with Tom Webster, a market researcher podcast or speaker and the Vice President of Strategy and marketing at Edison Research, a market research firm, who is also the leading podcast research company in the world. Let's take a look at three key takeaways from my conversation with him.

Kenneth Kinney 37:33

First, podcasting has been around for years. But we're talking about it a lot more today. We still have to explain to a lot of people though, what a podcast even is. But he brought up Spotify, which is such a great example of how it's changing how we consume media differently today. The reason that it's becoming more prevalent in retail conversations on a more mass appeal in interest with comedy skits on Saturday Night Live or Spotify or anywhere else is because of the influx of money in advertising. And as I said, I get requests to advertise quite frequently, especially because the guests that appear on the show like Tom and other notables that I've mentioned previously, you know, well, you can look at the list. They're all awesome, but you're already seeing it. And it's a thought amount. We've got to make certain that advertising doesn't destroy podcasting, like it has in a lot of other channels.

Kenneth Kinney 38:22

Second, Tom's data reflects how rookies are not often listening to the entire show. His point is that it's not because their attention spans too short. It's because they have options. That's the primary reason people switch around a great example he gave, if you work in the tire industry, you have a podcast, you're not competing against other tire companies, but instead against Joe Rogan. So be as invalidating as you can.

Kenneth Kinney 38:47

Third, Tom does it on his show. I do it on mine. We try to make it a show and provide better content. There's so many bad shows out there that don't last past episode seven, and focus little to none on the production value and it shows and it clutters up the field, you know focus on better content we don't need as listeners for podcasts to go the way of the blog.

Kenneth Kinney 39:08

Got a question? Send me an email to Kenneth at a shark's perspective.com.

Kenneth Kinney 39:13

Thank you again for the privilege of your time.

Kenneth Kinney 39:15

So let's do some research. Figure out what's next. And then let's do it together on the next episode of A Shark's Perspective.

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