Transcription
****Please forgive any and all transcription errors as this was transcribed by Otter.ai.****

[intro music]
Shark 0:16
Welcome back and thank you for joining A Shark's Perspective. I am Kenneth "Shark" Kinney, your host and Chief Shark officer.

Shark 0:23
If you were to consider a technology partner do your performance marketing efforts, especially one that used conversational text messages as part of your conversations with customers, it's often one of the most important considerations that's not always considered early enough. And that's compliance with regulations and guidance. So how do you go about from considering a vendor to developing a real partnership that not only performs but checks the box from a regulatory compliance standpoint, but also benefits the brand as well as makes a better customer experience? And really, what are the top considerations when introducing SMS into your marketing mix?

Shark 1:00
Today we welcome two guests to the show to explore that idea from both the brand side and the technology partner side. Puja Amin is a corporate legal counsel at loanDepot, and she's known as the TCPA Queenie. And we'll welcome back my friend AC Evans, who's the CEO and co founder of Drips, a company you've heard me mentioned many times on the show.

Shark 1:20
And on this episode we'll discuss asynchronous conversations, tech stacks, compliance concerns with outreach, better customer experience, good stewards who don't just meet but exceed guidelines, chatbots versus conversational text messaging, partnering with your legal team, making the rules in early protecting the brand, going from vendor to partner magic LeBron. So Cal an obvious answer for your favorite kind of shark and a lot, lot more. So let's tune in to Puja and AC with me, Mr. Shark, on this episode of A Shark's Perspective.

Shark 1:57
Puja and AC, thank you so much for joining us today on A Shark's Perspective, who's just starting with you would you briefly introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your background and your career today?

Puja Amin 2:07
Hi, everyone, I'm I'm legal counsel here at loan depot. And I oversee all of our enterprise marketing and advertising with a special emphasis on TCPA litigation and compliance. Prior to joining loan depot, I handled TCPA defense for various companies across the nation.

Shark 2:27
ACX Welcome back. Third time on the show. Tell us a brief introduction yourself as well.

AC Evans 2:32
Hey Kenneth. AC, Co-founder and CEO of drips.com. Been in online marketing for the better part of 20 years. So as a publisher, marketer, email or affiliate for years leading up to my career as a founder, and over the last 10 years or so I've had a handful of different companies, trips is one of them

Shark 2:54
outstanding. So it makes sense for us, I think, to focus most of our discussion today around some of the top considerations when introducing SMS into a marketing mix. And I think what really excites me about this also is that we're joined by a combination of powerful technologies and powerful brands with drips and loan depot. So first of all, describe how this was implemented. What was the consideration that went into it and sort of set up the use case, if you will? Gosh, Pooja, do you remember that far back? I can help. I mean, I look, I level,

AC Evans 3:29
I think loanDepot and every other enterprise in the world is experienced what we're all experiencing, which is people are picking up phone calls less than less than less. Right. And I don't think that's necessarily just due to the prevalence of robot eyes. I think it's truly because everybody is busy, meaning everybody has something better to do. That means, you know, trying to get ahold of them on the phone is trying to stop that person from doing whatever it is they are doing. I have a hard time getting my mom on the phone, you know, oftentimes, I'll call her she'll text me right back saying I'm busy. What's up? And what is happened is due to this on demand kind of economy is people want asynchronous conversations, right? They want to reply when they want to reply, doesn't mean you can't remind them doesn't mean you can't persist. But at the end of the day, just like us professionals have to schedule with each other. brands have to do something pretty similar with their consumers now,

Shark 4:20
yeah, it's probably easier for me to schedule a podcast interview than schedule a phone call with somebody anymore. It's it's certainly hard to do. But talk about, if you will, the importance of consumer outreach and how your tech stack plays into that.

Puja Amin 4:36
Yeah, so you know what he said, it's absolutely right, right, like text messaging is the preferred technology. And while I can be extremely powerful and an effective way to communicate with your consumers, you know, the most important thing for me in my role from the legal department is ensuring that you know, before the business takes advantage of these types of technology platforms to really enhance them. marketing efforts that these tech partners understand and comply with the obvious legal requirements regarding consumer outreach, you know, and any business using outbound dialing or texting for consumer outreach should be aware if they're not already of the Telephone Consumer Protection Act, right or the TCPA. And we know that the TCPA was originally designed to outlaw this technology called random or sick control generator technology. And eventually, it was also expanded to prevent what we know of as robo calls or Robo attacks. And, you know, while the TCPA is extremely vague, it one thing that it is clear on is that it applies to text messages in the same manner as phone calls, right. And companies such as loan depot, and others can be vicariously liable for these texts and calls up to 15 $100 for each on set on your behalf by third party companies. So you know, for me, from my perspective, it's crucial to only work with technology platforms and partners who understand and are to compliant with the TCPA and other state laws, you know, which in turn will help you stay remain reputable with your customers, and obviously, you know, keep you from legal harm.

Shark 6:14
I don't think most marketing teams would necessarily invite in a legal representative to be part of the normal everyday conversation to make it more complicated, but at the same time, you've got to have a good understanding with a good partner in order to be especially in the environment you're in.

Puja Amin 6:30
Yeah, absolutely. Like, you know, I often wear two hats, right? To put on my legal hat and my business hat, right. And when I'm wearing my business hat, I'm, you know, befriending folks like AC, and my other partners to make sure we're all on the same page, right? It's not marketing team's job, or it's not my business's job to do the legal work or understand the legal requirements, it's my job to tell them, hey, look, a company like drips, their compliance of, you know, feel free to utilize them for your marketing efforts. It's also my job to prevent those bad actors or those vendors that don't uphold our standards to coming into our ecosystem. So yeah, you're absolutely right, Kenneth, you know, I'm constantly wearing two hats at the same time.

Shark 7:14
Well, I, I've had this conversation, a lot of times with digital marketers who think they're very strong in lead gen, and then they don't know a lot about compliance and Regulatory Affairs and things like that. And welcome back, I'm just from from thinking that they know more than they know, because there's such regulatory complexity around lead generation anymore, that you really have to have a good partner, your legal team. So a seat, talk a little bit about the differences between chatbot versus conversational texting, and what you're doing in that aspect with loan depot.

AC Evans 7:47
Sure. You know, I think chatbot or push messaging, when I say push message mean, one way texting, or two way kind of agent enablement. Meaning, you know, the loan officers can use Salesforce, and do some texting back and forth. I think all of those have their place, you know, but a lot of them, sadly, it opens up a lot of compliance risk. And that's what Pooja has to deal with all the time. And that's why we make such good partners as we bake, because we're mostly automated, we can bake all of our rules into the system, all our best practices into the system, you know, what do you do on a holiday? What do you do at midnight? What do you do if it's your state emergency, all of this can be solved within our system. If you give somebody the opportunity to just due to a texting meeting, again, a loan officer, and I've seen this not not at loan depot at one of their competitors, who who doesn't use us unfortunately, where they had some two way texting capability. I think I've told you this story Pooja, were and I was looking at the logs and, you know, somebody texts back said, No, I don't I don't, I don't, you know, I don't want to do the refinance anymore, you know, leave me alone type thing. And the loan officer being, you know, a passionate salesperson just came right back. He's like, Well, did you know that you know, rates are at an all time low. And you know, what that loan officer isn't thinking about and what their platform that they enabled? Wasn't solutioning for is like that person just just ignored a revocation of consent. Right? So I think when you work with platforms, like trips that that have a compliance first mindset, it gets rid of a lot of those problems, you know, chatbot that's finite and definable. But it's it's mechanic, right so most people don't want to engage with chat bots. That when I say chat bot it means you know, you text and you say I hey, I'm interested in getting you know a loan for my house and then the the chatbot responds we didn't really understand your your your message please respond one if you want to quote to if you want to refinance three if you want, you know something else for Do you want to be removed from the list? That's not a great user experience, I equate it almost like an IVR, right like a multi tiered IVR, where like, you press one, and then they ask you to press three for this for for this and then as your press seven for this and nine for that, you never know where it's going to end, I think humans want to engage with humans. The problem with that is, it's terribly expensive. And there's a lot of quality assurance and risk that you open up if you're trying to stamp out all your loan officers, therefore, you know, the best possible solution, in my opinion, and I'm obviously biased is an automated humanized chatbot that can follow rules and can you know, know that this is a Florida persons will only touch them three times or know that it's midnight, you know, and to not, you know, message them back unless they ask a question, that kind of thing.

Shark 10:48
Such a great point on the revocation of consent. So Puja, when you look at it from a legal perspective, is it less likely that you're going to be sued if you're able to communicate more in that human or humane manner, if you will?

Puja Amin 11:02
You know, I can't really quantify you know, what lawsuits your source. Right, but, you know, it's obvious, right? unwanted text messaging, or phone calls are the source of irritation, right. And as we talked about the TCPA was expanded and so much TCPA litigation has followed since to prevent these blast texts or robo calls, right. So the more frustrated consumer becomes, you know, likely they're going to be the folks who take legal action against you, one would think as opposed to the ones that actually want to be contacted by you. So, you know, keeping in mind what the TCPA puts a special emphasis on, right. And that's obtaining a consumers consent and honoring and acknowledging opt out request. So you know, it's obviously extremely important that your business is doing that, also, that your vendors have the systems and the technology to really perform on those requirements, right. So if you're using a chat box, that's not picking up on a stop request, for instance, versus or when you're texting, you know, which the drips platform, it picks up on different banned terms and different stop requests terms, etc, you're more likely to be able to honor those opt out request, and, you know, therefore, you're protecting your brand. And then you're also preventing, as I mentioned, you know, any legal repercussions as well,

Shark 12:24
talking about that role, as well that both of you play from a different standpoint of representing your brand and how you're protecting it, because I think that's so extremely important to the consumer as well, that might be engaging with your brand.

AC Evans 12:39
And I think it's where every enterprise has to get to, right like if you are just pushing out, you know, coupon codes, or buy one, get ones or whatever, and it's mass blast, and people didn't ask for it, like your brand is going to get damaged the end. I always think of it as quality of conversation, right? Like, if you're having the right conversation with the right people the right time on their time, you're gonna have a great consumer experience. So you can use the same channel and you can really upset the applecart or you can really nurture consumers for a long time asynchronously and have a great, great experience. I think the the companies that are going to have problems, you know, kind of going, you know, a couple years in the future or the publishers that are trying to use this channel as a marketing channel, meaning unsolicited, right like 10 DLC is going to put a big dent in that stir shakin is already putting a big dent in it when it comes to telemarketing. And the brokers I think the the companies that aren't necessarily they they're not generating the user and they're not servicing the user. I think those two kind of groups are going to have trouble in this more transparency you know, privacy, like user experience being prioritized environment that we're going into we've seen it from, you know, Facebook and iOS and google google killing cookies, iOS, asking if you want to be tracked on your apps, like, I think 3% of people are saying, sure track me face book, you know, so there's a there's a huge push for consumer first that every company is going to have to abide by legally and just from a sense of like, what makes sense for consumerism.

Shark 14:29
Oh, absolutely. It's amazing to think that we've at least gotten to a place where people are starting to think about customer experience with the same heavy hammer at least metaphorically speaking to some degree. It provides a different level of respect. Puja, how do you see that same?

Puja Amin 14:43
You know, it's, I agree with everything he said, but the biggest thing for me is contacting folks who want to be contacted right? Avoiding that annoyance or that frustration and you know, to at this point, they Or in control of when they're being contacted, what timing when they want to stop when they want to reach out to consumers more and more, are controlling their interactions with businesses, right. And I think businesses need to take that lead and follow the consumer, it's about the consumer, right. And in order to keep that engagement and have consumers coming back to you have to follow their lead and their wants, right. And without that, you're you know, that folks are getting frustrated and your brand is going to be ruined as a result, you don't want to be deemed as that person who's constantly violating the TCPA, or that company who's on, you know, spam.com websites, right, the numbers where people are entering to block, get these brands blocked, you don't want to be those folks. And you know, a big part of that, in my opinion, a big part of that is obtaining the consent prior to reaching out. And then as I mentioned, the opt out, honoring the opt out request, as well,

Shark 15:56
obviously takes a lot of time and money and consideration on the brand side to onboard a vendor like this or a partner. How do you really look at this to make sure that you've got the right kind of partnerships to make sure that this is a sustainable practice Boucher?

Puja Amin 16:11
Well, I mean, that's very reasonable, I'm employed still, right, because this stuff takes time. And as technology evolves, and continues to run, we're constantly comparing it to this outdated, vague statute that was built at a time when this technology didn't exist, right. So making sure that these are platforms and folks that you want in your ecosystem takes a lot of due diligence on you know, my part, my legal departments part, and you know, the business. So continue me like, not only onboarding them, but also ensuring that they're continuing to stay up to date with the law, right? This is ever changing, I can, we'll have a separate podcast on just the TCPA alone. But you know, as most of us know that the law is ever changing in this area, and it's extremely fast paced, as well as the technology that's coming out. So you know, you got to be on top of it, you ought to be engaged with your partners, and you have to make sure that you're staying there they are keeping up with your standards,

Shark 17:13
etc. How do you approach this same subject? How do you maintain being a good steward from a technology standpoint, so that you can adhere to the law and make your customers happy and onboard them and partner with them? Long term?

AC Evans 17:26
Yeah, it's a great question. We honestly try to establish best practices that are above and beyond what is legally required. Right. Like Pooja and my work through the leads Council, we get a lot of eyes on, you know, how all the different companies are doing their dialing cadences what laws are coming up, consumer experience, you know, but you know, candidly, like, we were some of the first to do what we do. And when we were doing it, I was, you know, trying to make sure that we were being as compliant as possible. So we baked in a lot of stuff early on, we were baking in, you know, holidays as an example under the TSR into our system to say like, okay, on Thanksgiving in the states don't don't reach out. And and, you know, I Pooja is a lawyer, she could tell you, I don't want to give legal opinion. But you don't have to do that if you have prior Express written consent, right? Like that was that was something we did above and beyond to say, Okay, well, if it's the third day, and it's Thanksgiving, like maybe we just don't even get prior Express written consent. So there's a lot of that stuff where like, we are establishing and kind of like trying to edge our names into the best practices because nobody's done this as many times as trips has. So we have to lead, right? We can't, there's no playbook for us to follow. Therefore, we have to write and build the blueprints. And then we work with experts like Pooja and Eric Troutman, our outside counsel and all the other GCS for all the other companies that we work with. And, and we we theory test it, you know, we're like, Okay, well, here's, here's the new Florida law, just as an example of Florida, three touch points, right, within 24 hours. What if you did two calls and attacks? And then the person that asked a question, so well, how much is it going to cost? Or what are the interest rates? Or can you call me now? You know, should you ignore that person? You know what I mean? So you have to, you have to innovate, you know, you have to build this stuff. And you have to, you know, you have to stand behind it with which we have I suppose you'd have to tell me because you, you diligence, more vendors than than I do, obviously, but I seem to see see at one or two ways, there's either companies like ours that are trying to be thoughtful and lead with best practices and subject matter expertise around the various different compliance concerns our clients have. And of those others who are just like, here's the keys, do whatever you want, right? Like it saw its software. We're not on the hook. We're not on the hook.

Puja Amin 19:50
You know, Kenneth, I think AC has the tougher job right? I'm wearing two hats. He's wearing three right he has to be the creative genius around what businesses such as Ours needs, right, they're constantly dreaming up things as they should, right and stay competitive in this market. And when they're dreaming up these things, folks, like a, c have the task of not only executing on the creative mind, but also ensuring that it's compliant. Right. And that's why it's really cool to work with companies like drips, who understand it, get it work, and jump on the phone and just say, you know, the business is thinking of x, y, and z, what are your thoughts, you know, and then we can run it by our outside counsel Trotman, or whomever, but the initial task is really on our platforms and what they're capable of doing.

AC Evans 20:39
And also say that we, you know, we've spent a lot a lot of money as a bootstrap, startup in our early years, on legal research, like, like building and researching these best practices doing state by state audits. I mean, we spent hundreds and hundreds of 1000s of dollars, to make sure that we're building the the best software we could, and for better or worse, a lot of young startup companies can't, can't afford that kind of investment. You know, I mean, it's just, it's just, it's just economics, right? You have to you have to do what you can afford to do. And we knew, again, because we were performance marketers, we knew how regulated this space was, so we knew how important it was for us to have a stance, and that that investment has paid off. I would, I would absolutely say, I mean, most companies that, you know, diligence, us, you know, big health care companies, big auto insurance companies, like you have to have a stance on this stuff, a young new vendor that just, you know, build a chatbot you can't just say, Well, you know, we don't really need to deal with ccpa. Or Well, we don't have a policy for you know, that or we don't know how to, you know, you can't not be able to answer those questions, if you're going to sell enterprise. Now, if you're just selling publishers affiliate marketers, you know, the gunslingers, right, like, that's a great point. Yeah, they don't care as much, you know. So it's just, I would just say, like any other, you know, young entrepreneurs out there that are looking to get into this space. If you're going to try to sell enterprises, you have to have subject matter expertise around this, or you have to pay a lawyer for you. Right?

Shark 22:14
Well shout out to TCPA. czar Eric Troutman preference and shout out to Rob Seaver and LeedsCouncil. So right thank you to both of them. So as we wonder time down, I would ask how do you continue to work together sort of look through your planning to stay ahead of the game, as all these changes come together?

Puja Amin 22:35
I think LeedsCouncil is a huge asset to staying connected. Right. And, and our industry, it's very tight, and we respect each other. And, you know, we highly respect each other. And I think most of us understand that we're all very knowledgeable in this area of law and our marketing efforts, right? What what we're trying to do out there. So I think just staying apprised, educated and staying in touch is extremely important for all of us, because we're constantly learning from each other where, you know, when the Florida law came out, you know, we were all on the phone together for hours, that first week, right. And that just goes to show you that each one of us in our companies want to be compliant with the law, and also provide good customer service. Right, that that's why our businesses were built at the end of the day. So we're, our goals are all the same. And I think that, you know, is incredibly important for what we do every day.

Shark 23:38
Yeah, we got California, we got Virginia, we got Florida, only 47 more states to go. So you're going to be on a lot of planning meetings together with a national brand like that.

Puja Amin 23:47
Yeah and Kenneth I'll add, you know, like companies, like I'm sure AC sees competitive companies coming out and being innovated every single day. Right? And but if they're not apprised of this statue that's in our face every single day, then, you know, that should be a big red flag to these businesses, right? Because the TCPA is incredibly important law, you know, your marketing team needs to know about them, your vendor needs to know about them, and you just got to get the noise out there. So I agree.

AC Evans 24:14
And I would add for the for the vendor side of the house and and i would say probably for the publishers out there as well is you have to equally remain flexible, right? Like I can't tell you know, to adopt my best practice should be like yeah, you know that that's cute AC but here's an pujas Right, right. Pooja, Pooja is the client, you know, who Pooja is the enterprise who ultimately you know, it's their consumer, right? It's not a drip, we're not reaching out saying, Hey, this is drips on behalf of loan depot, like we're reaching out, you know, for loan depot, so you have to be equally flexible. You know, like maybe loan depot wants to make a more passive, you know, cannons or more aggressive one, you know, for whatever reason, who knows, but I think so. Same with publishers. I don't know if you deal with this Pooja, but I can imagine the publishers that work the best with you are the ones are like okay, well we have to adopt their brand guidelines, you can't reach out and be like, you know, get get get a zero interest mortgage rate, right? The publisher might crush it, you know, you know, transfer rates or whatever but you know, the sell through would be bad and it wouldn't be representative of your brand. So I think publishers vendors like you, we have to be willing to, to be flexible to the needs of the enterprise, ultimately.

Shark 25:31
Great point. So as our timelines down Puja, I've asked AC some of these questions before he's been on the show before. So I get to make you the next victim. Since we're welcoming you to the show. For the first time. You're on A Shark's Perspective. You're in Orange County, California, could ask what is your favorite kind of shark and why?

Puja Amin 25:51
Oh, wow, I don't have a favorite shark.

Shark 25:54
Could be me. That's acceptable. Kenneth There you go. That's a great mrd I'm already failing. You're not at all Boucher. It's a special time the show? Are you ready for the five most interesting and important questions that you're going to be asked today? Yes. All right. We'll see how you do with these. Magic johnson or LeBron James. You're a gal in the LA area.

Puja Amin 26:16
LeBron James.

Shark 26:18
Oh wow. We may end this show early. Number two, home loan or car loans?

Puja Amin 26:26
Oh, wow. Home loans.

Shark 26:29
All right. Number three, because you also went to school. They're masking this San Diego or or LA?

Puja Amin 26:36
San Diego regardless of where I went to school.

Shark 26:40
Amen to that. All right, number four. Gregory Peck and To Kill a Mockingbird or Paul Newman in the verdict. Oh, Paul Newman in the verdict. Hmm. All right. Number five. The most important question that you're going to be asked today, that ACS answered as well as biscuits or cornbread. Oh man, that's tough. I got to get the biscuits though. Okay, yep. Pretty sure I went cornbread. I'm from the south. So either. That's tough. I like both. So Pooja, where can people find out more about you keep up with what you're doing and more.

Puja Amin 27:21
Yeah, you can add me on LinkedIn. I think TCPAworld.com speaks of Queenie often you can find me there. You know or reach out to AC. I'm sure he has my number somewhere.

Shark 27:34
AC, same same to you. Where can people get in touch with you?

AC Evans 27:37
I will send everybody Puja's cell phone number that you'll get 500 to receive 500 bucks. Yeah. drips comm is always the best place we were putting out a ton of content. You know, follow us on any of the social medias. We have a very very strong marketing team that's putting out a ton of thought leadership and otherwise we'll be on the road here soon we'll be at contact leads client leads con insuretech Connect so excited to get back out there pandemic willing.

Puja Amin 28:10
Yeah, I will. I can add drips does put out some amazing content for you folks. Information on compliance efforts that trips is doing really really neat stuff that you guys put out AC Thank you.

Shark 28:28
So there was my conversation with Puja Amin, corporate legal counsel at loanDepot, and AC Evans, the CEO and Co-founder of drips. Let's take a look at three key takeaways from a conversation with them.

Shark 28:38
First, as AC said brands all over the world are having a much more difficult time getting people on the phone. So what should they do to create an asynchronous conversation? text messaging is a preferred method for many to most are respecting compliance and legal guidelines is paramount. One, it's important from the standpoint of TCPA the Telephone Consumer Protection Act, the two from the standpoint of the experience of the customer.

Shark 29:02
Second, as marketers continue to evolve with new technologies and expanded methods to interact with consumers, it's important to have a strong partner on your legal team. There's a lot of regulatory complexities around lead generation and how it can affect businesses of all sizes and get them in trouble if they practice the wrong method or leverage the wrong technologies. It's also good to join organizations like the Leeds Council in order to better understand those best practices.

Shark 29:28
Third, who should talk about the value they have as a partner relationship and not just looking at drifts in this case as a vendor, and that's a requirement for her and a necessity for any business, let alone large financial institution like loan depot. As AC said they try to exceed not just follow established best practices. Companies like that who get it should be a real consideration for brands and performance marketers that you look at heavily and not just what is necessarily the quick consideration that may come from price or a nice brochure. feature technology play. I mean, this is really important to consider with all partner relationships.

Shark 30:05
Got a question? Send me an email to Kenneth at A Shark's Perspective dot com. Thank you again for the privilege of your time. I am so thankful to everyone who listens and a special shout out and thank you to the amazing sponsors, Invoca and Drips, who make this show possible. Please consider writing a review. Now it's time to go out there and exhibit some of the best practices of your own. And one of those best practices is to join us on the next episode of A Shark's Perspective.
[music]