Transcription
****Please forgive any and all transcription errors as this was transcribed by Otter.ai.****

[intro music]
Shark 0:16
Welcome back and thank you for joining A Shark's Perspective. I am Kenneth "Shark" Kinney, keynote speaker, strategist and your Chief Shark Officer. Kenneth Kinney 0:24
What does differentiation mean to you and your brand? When you look at the sea of sameness, most businesses look like everyone else they compete with in the marketplace. But whether the logo looks incredibly unique, or the reviews look similar to everyone else on a five point scale, what it ultimately comes down to is what is the differentiating experience you provide customers, not just when they sign up or buy that first time, but what becomes expected over and over again, all while you're trying to not just meet their expectations, but to exceed them. So what is your competitive differentiator? Kenneth Kinney 0:58
Stan Phelps is a speaker, the best selling author of the Goldfish Series of books, a Forbes contributor, and a marketing instructor for the ANA School of Marketing and Rutgers Business School. Kenneth Kinney 1:08
And on this episode, we'll discuss the differentiating experience your brand has control over a lot about goldfish in different ways to be different, embracing your flaws and being flotsam that very first pet a troubling of goldfish books exceeding expectations, Buckley's cough syrup, the carp family inspired by chatter, tartaric acid, and a lot, lot more. Kenneth Kinney 1:28
So let's tune in to the goldfish guy and the one and only shark guy on this episode of A Shark's Perspective. Kenneth Kinney 1:39
Stan, welcome to A Shark's Perspective. Would you please give us a little bit about your background and your career to date? Stan Phelps 1:46
Sure, Stan Phelps, author and speaker I started out working in in sports marketing. on the agency side, I worked for a group called img. And then I spent about a decade on the brand side working with Adidas and the PGA of America. And then I finished my my 20 plus year career began on the agency side in experiential marketing. And based on my experiences there led me to start writing and that writing led to now a whole series of books. Kenneth Kinney 2:23
So you got several published books, a series of books with goldfish in the title. What was the idea around that? What's the affinity for goldfish? Stan Phelps 2:33
So the goldfish a couple of couple of things. One, it was my very first pet. KENNETH Do you remember your first pet? It was a dog? Yeah. Okay, gotcha. So I was six and my very my my own very first pet was a goldfish that I wanted a carnival. So that's part of the reason why it's it's important to me. The other part is because of a hotel chain called Kimpton. For stayed at a Kimpton. No, I haven't. So it's now owned by IAA. But it's a group of boutique hotels throughout the US and Canada. And they really get the guest experience. So if you stay at a Kimpton, they do a lot of little things to add value you know, gourmet coffee for free in the lobby, they do wine tasting in the afternoon, but I and their pet friendly but I love this if you if you stay at a Kimpton hotel, maybe you're getting a little lonely, some of the Kimpton hotels, we give you a pet goldfish for your stay. And so I love that as a little signature thing that you do, to stand out in what I would call a sea of sameness. And it turns out what's really interesting, the goldfish is really just for my books, is a metaphor for growth via differentiation. Kenneth Kinney 4:09
I think that's fascinating. I think I'd heard the story with fish, but I didn't put it with that chain of hotels, Stan Phelps 4:15
I'll share with you some most people have heard this, about a goldfish, you know, the goldfish will grow to the size of the bowl or the pond that they're in. And that's a direct correlation. The bigger the bowl, the bigger the pond, the more they grow. So that's kind of the first growth factor of five for a goldfish. And what I what I talk about in my keynotes and workshops is that these five growth factors apply to any organization. So if we think about, say, for example, the first one the size of the bowl or the pond, well in business, that's simply the market that you serve. Does that make sense kind of does. It does You know, the bigger the market you you serve, the more you can grow. Here's number two, if you're a goldfish, your growth is also determined by the other goldfish that are in that bowl or pond. And this one's an inverse relationship. So the less goldfish in the in the bowl or the pond, the more you typically grow, the more it impacts or stunts your growth. So who are the other goldfish in business? Your competitors? Yeah, it's your competition, right? Here's the third one that used to be tough, until the damage really hit us. If you're a goldfish, your growth is all impacted by the quality of the surrounding that you're in. Water is really important. And the more nutrients in the water, the less cloudy the woods, the more you grow. So I want you to think macro, what quality of that surrounding if you're in business. It's it's simply the economy. Right, your ability to grow is impacted by things like regulations, tariff, tariffs, access to capital, right? Consumer confidence, people's willingness to purchase. So that's number three. Very quickly. Number four is for a goldfish is how they do in their first four months of life. So they're tiny when they're born. A goldfish, a baby goldfish is called the fry, as in small fry. So they've got 100, brothers and sisters. So how they do in the first 120 days will impact how big they ultimately get. And so what is that in business? It's simply how do you do as a startup? Or if you launch a new product or service? How do you do in that like critical? first few months? And so number five for a goldfish is their genetic makeup. So what is that goldfish born with? That separates it from all of the other goldfish in the bowl or the pond? And the more the stronger their jeans are in, the more that they're separated? Typically, the bigger they grow, if their jeans are weak, and they're like every, every one of the other goldfish, the less they typically grow. So in business that really comes down to differentiation. How do you stand out amongst everyone else that you compete with? And the the kind of takeaway is, and I challenge people, I say, Well, if you've already been in business for four months, what do you really have control over? Do you have control over the market? No. How about your competition? Not unless you're buying them, right. And if anyone listening to this right now has control over the economy, please reach out to me, I would appreciate it. The only thing you have control over is how you differentiate. You do but more importantly, I would say why you do it, and how you do it. And that really speaks to the importance of experience being maybe the greatest form of marketing for your business. Kenneth Kinney 8:40
I got it. So do you own a goldfish now? Stan Phelps 8:44
Do I do not own a goldfish now Kenneth Kinney 8:47
I don't have an aquarium for your kids or your family. Stan Phelps 8:49
I travel too much. And my we did for a short time because like, I was so proud. I took my oldest son to the North Carolina State Fair. And he did the same thing I did. He threw the ping pong ball. And he came home with his goldfish. Go and go. Nothing, nothing to do with us. A lot of times they don't live very long. And unfortunately, after a few months, our goldfish passed and we did not replace the goldfish. Kenneth Kinney 9:24
They didn't pass you set them free. down a toilet. Do you know what I thought that was? Actually because I was looking at how many books you read. Do you know what a a group of goldfish is called? You could say this for your group of books. Stan Phelps 9:39
A school? No, Kenneth Kinney 9:41
it's a troubling I've never heard that before. Yeah, traveling like a herd of cows or a school of fish. It's a troubling of goldfish. Who knew? So troubling a troubling of goldfish books. So, I will just tell you though, that I find that most people that are up Test with fish are just kind of weird. Stan Phelps 10:02
I take that as a compliment. Kenneth Kinney 10:05
Yes, my parents would not let me have a pet shark. So we had the dog instead. So, but let's let's dive in a little bit further into the philosophy and talk about how we change that paradigm of marketing by encouraging audiences to focus on experiences, as you said, as the ultimate ultimate competitive differentiator. One of the things you just talked about as you weren't you worked for brands, like Adidas, or Adidas, were in Europe, or for agencies where you lived in that side as well, when you start thinking about how we blend this all together, because again, if at the end of the day, the customer doesn't know, who came up with the great idea for the goldfish, as the therapy fish in the bedroom, at the cullompton Hotel, there seems to still be a a mix, because we've got a lot of great brands with great ideas, we get a lot of great agencies, but they never seem to quite mesh and live up to what the customer expectations are. Why do you think that is? Stan Phelps 11:07
Well, first off, I think the biggest myth in marketing is simply trying to meet the expectations of a customer. Right, and this is a, this was kind of my moment of truth. And I won't even go into the story, but it's kind of what led me on this journey, is that no one ever just simply meets the expectations of the customer, right? You either exceed their expectations, or you all short. It's like being on time no one is ever just on time. You're either late or you're early. Right? Well, you're Kenneth Kinney 11:46
never inspired to give a three star review the five star or one star? Yeah, Stan Phelps 11:52
exactly. So. So here's the thing, I think, as an owner, from an expectation perspective, it's either you decide to exceed expectations, and do more. Or you decide just what I do is just good enough, and I just shoot to be good enough. And to me, I think in the marketplace, there's a huge difference between a referred customer as opposed to a traditionally acquired customer. And so I'm in the business of trying to encourage companies to think about little ways that they can do more, right to earn those referrals and those valuable customers. Kenneth Kinney 12:42
Fair. So how do we get there to where employees at companies realize they're able to achieve this. And so you talk a lot about purposeful digital transformation. Explain what that means and how we help employees and customers get to that place where we're exceeding expectations? Stan Phelps 13:01
Yeah, well, first off, I'm a marketer. So my first book was all about the customer, right? All About, I collected over 1000 examples of companies that did signature little things, I started to try to break down, you know, the different ways that you can do, it turns out, there's 10 different ways you can do it. But what I quickly realized, is that the companies that really got it, Kenneth, didn't focus so much on the customers themselves. They did the same things for the employees, and actually put a greater emphasis on their employees. Because without engaged employees, your chance of delivering that great experience. And so that led me to the second book in the series. And I and, and it's kind of there now, there's 10 Different colors in the series, but it all at the end of the day really comes down to taking care of the employees that you have, right, making sure that they're engaged, and delivering that differentiated experience, to the customers that are part of that is, you know, delving into and embracing purpose as part of it. Part of it is leveraging technology as a way to improve the experience and reduce the effort your customers have to go through. So there are a lot of different elements to it. But at the end of the day, it comes down to employees and customers. Kenneth Kinney 14:38
So you also talked about in pink goldfish, you write about how true differentiation in businesses rare we're now living in an age of equivalency, what are some of the ways that businesses can leverage what makes their brand unique in your eyes? Stan Phelps 14:53
Yeah, so this is really passionate for me as the marketing guy is thinking about from a strategy perspective, how do you stand out. And so pink goldfish, which was the sixth color in the series, is a is based on my co author and I looking at now over 400 companies that achieved competitive separation. And what we found is that there's really only two ways that you can stand out and be different. One is to do more, it's the more strategy do more of what makes you kind of inherently unique compared to everyone else that's quote, unquote, normal. And that the second way is hola strategy. Another way to stand out is to purposely do less of what everyone else does as, quote unquote, normal. And so I think what great companies that can differentiate themselves is that they understand that the things that they may think are flaws about them, instead of trying to correct those flaws and become like everyone else, what smart companies do is that they embrace those flaws, as the things that make them awesome. Whereas we say in the book, the things that make them flawless. Awesome. Kenneth Kinney 16:23
Yeah. So can you give us a practical real world example of that of one that you identified? Stan Phelps 16:30
Yeah, so the cornerstone of and flossing, by the way is not just an idea. It's also works to be the acronym that drives the eight different ways that you can be different. Yeah, and the cornerstone of that is this idea of flaunting that's the F in Folsom, meaning that if you can't kind of embrace who you are, then there's really no, it's if you can't do that, there's nowhere else to go. So there's a great example we talked about from Canada, a cough syrup company called Buckley's and so, you know, what's the flaw of cough syrup? It's, it's the taste, right? No one has ever drank something in their life and said, Oh, this tastes so good. It tastes like cough syrup. Right, those words. So what most normal cough syrup companies do is that they try to cover up that fact, they flavor it, they reformulate it, right, they try to figure out, they come up with a pill version, right? To make to make it more palatable. Well, this company in Canada called mclees, instead of trying to correct that flaw, they leaned into it. And they created an entire campaign that spoke up spoke to how bad Buckley's actually tastes. And they compare it in the in this campaign, Buckley's cough syrup to trash bag leakage, sweaty gym socks, I mean, like a taste test, right? And, you know, and the tagline of the campaign is, you know, people swear by it and add it. Right, it tastes awful. Why? Because it works. And I love this by owning that flaw. And embracing it, they stood out before the campaign, they were just 2% of the market in Canada, within a year, they had shot up to 11% of the market. And so to me, that's a great example of understanding that every weakness has a corresponding strength. And one of the things I think horrible horribly that we do as marketers, is we begin to benchmark people within our space. And we look at whoever the leader is, and we start to try to break down the things that make them successful. And then whether we want to admit it or not, what do we do next, kind of Kenneth Kinney 19:15
try to imitate it, or mimic how we Stan Phelps 19:17
start to emulate the things that we think make them successful. And that's not a road to standing out and being different. That's a road to being quote, unquote, normal. So that's that example of flaunting is, you know, a simple one of understanding what makes you unique and different and trying to cover up and fix it. Maybe what you need to do is double or triple down on it, what we call lop citing. And then there's an entire concept called withholding, which is this idea of maybe not doing every thing that's normal. Kenneth Kinney 20:01
Let me ask you also then we don't have to go too far into this. But you talked about flaunting. Let us know what the rest of the "flawsome" acronym means. Stan Phelps 20:10
Sure, so flaunting lopsided thing. Next one's my favorite, antagonizing. Right, you don't have to be for everyone know who you're for, but particularly who you're not for. That'd be you is withholding, which is actually doing less. The S is for swerving, which is the idea of maybe doing smaller things, not massive things, swerving, always for opposing. When everyone starts to follow the leader, some people go in the exact opposite direction. And sometimes the opposite of a good thing is also a good thing. The M is is very much like my first book, purple goldfish, it's what we call micro Weirding. So that's really small things that you do with the experience that either embraces what makes you unique or less of what everyone does is normal. And then in the 2.0, we added the E which is exposing and exposing is the idea of like owning maybe even your negative reviews, like not trying to push them aside, because in those negative reviews are truths about who you are, and who you are for. So I'll give you a great example from the pink goldfish 2.0 There's a result Mountain Resort in Utah called Snowbird I got a chance to visit it this summer. I mean, it's like a shear that you have to ski or snowboard on. It is not for the faint of heart. Right. So they did an entire campaign where all they did was feature their one star reviews. You know, I felt like my life was in danger. Right? Too much powder. Right? I mean, these these things are like antithetical to why people want to go skiing, because they're risk takers, right? Or, you know, for a passionate skier, there's no such thing as too much powder. Right? No easy trails. Right? It's so essentially what they're doing by exposing it is they're pushing away the people that they'd never be a good fit for. And by pushing those people away, they're attracting the ones that they actually want. Kenneth Kinney 22:49
So when you're delivering these, this philosophy method or your methodology, whether it's in a consulting engagement, or it's on stage, what pushback do you get from people that would disagree with this? Because when I hear you, I hear you elaborate extremely well. And I'm always curious, but I'm wondering about the client out there that you're talking to what are they hearing and rebutting with or pushing back on, if you will. Stan Phelps 23:17
I'll give you a couple of one. One is for purple, golden fish. And that is, and again, there's a reason behind all of these colors. But that's about doing little things for your customers. And people say, Well, that's great from a surprise and delight perspective. But what happens the second or the third, or the fourth time, that customer, that little extra now becomes what it becomes an expectation. And I tell people, yeah, absolutely don't. This is not a mark campaign, right, where you do a little something extra. And then three months later, they come back and it's gone. You need to look at these things that you do is little extras of things that you do to go above and beyond the transaction, to honor the relationship. And then when you add these things, yeah, it may become part of the expectation. But it also becomes part of the differentiation. Right if one of my favorite examples from purple, and most people have experienced this when you stay at a DoubleTree Hotel, what do you get right when you check in chocolate chip cookie? You get a warm a warm cookie. Yes. Cookie individually wrapped right now. Yes. Are am I going to expect that the next time I go to a Doubletree Yeah, absolutely. I do. Actually you'd be upset if I didn't get it. But here's the thing that people miss. If staying at the DoubleTree or staying at the Marriott cord, you Artists is, you know, apples to apples, I'm probably going to pick the Doubletree because I love that cookie. And so it also becomes part of a reason for people to talk about the experience. And you nailed it on the head. We don't talk about the average or the, what we expected, right? That we only talk about the things that are unique and different. And so most businesses agree that, you know, word of mouth is the best thing in terms of powering their business. And I'll give credit to Jay Baer for this, you know, 90% of businesses say it's the number one thing. And then the follow up is, well, who has a word of mouth strategy. And it's like less than 1% of businesses. Here's one I get from paint goldfish, which is embracing what makes you weird, or in some cases, weak or flawed, is, hey, we've been a business we're established. We can't do this, because, you know, we're just too big, or we have too much history. And so my pushback is, yeah, maybe you don't start with the massive stuff, maybe start with little things that you can do. Right, to differentiate the experience. You know, sometimes I get pushback, because green goldfish is about the things that you do for your employees. And before, say, the last two years, I would get well, those things just become again, expectations, or people become complacent, or they become entitled, that the company is doing all of these little things for them. And they're in a climate where it's hard to recruit good people. You're losing institutional knowledge and people that have been around for years. And here's the thing, if all you separate yourself, is based on the money that you give to people. I've got news for you of people that just care about money can be easily bought. Right? You have to think about the ways that you do little things to bring your culture to life, right? To make your people feel like they're valued. Right, and they're part of something in order to get them to care and to be engaged. Kenneth Kinney 27:48
Love it. Stan, I asked this of all my guests. And since you are a fish lover, I get to ask you, you're in you're not too far from the Carolina coast. What is your favorite kind of shark and why? Stan Phelps 28:03
Favorite type of shark and why? I'm gonna say they hammerhead. Good choice. Because they don't look like any other shark. They look so darn weird. And I love especially if you ever seen like 1000s of them. Oh yeah. Galapagos whirling. Yep. Swirling. And so I do a fun thing with you know, that really helps people create their own goldfish called goldfish tank. And so as part of that, I love the idea of that kind of swirling imagery. Kenneth Kinney 28:42
Yeah, I've seen swarms of sharks and the ones that I saw with the Hammerhead, that migration to the Galapagos Islands is life changing. So still, yeah, it's takes forever to get there. But it's, it's worth seeing. Just swim overhead. We'll stay in a special time the show. Are you ready for the five most interesting and important questions that you're going to be asked today? On a Friday afternoon when we record this? Yeah, let's go. Alright. Number one, and it's not because of the book so this is this is close enough, though. Goldfish, or Koi? Stan Phelps 29:15
Oh, goldfish, by by far, Kenneth Kinney 29:17
they're both part of the carp family. I did not know that. I thought they were the pretty much the same fish. Alright, number two, being a speaker or being a marketer? Stan Phelps 29:31
That's tough. I want to say speaker, just because I'm passionate about what I do. And my goal is to get people to think differently about marketing. And marketing should be as much if not more about the customer that you serve. Rather than being all about the prospect that you chase, Kenneth Kinney 29:56
would that have changed at all if I'd said being a speaker or being a golfer, The first time I called you, you were out on the course. We talked for a half hour, you were Stan Phelps 30:06
lining the pandemic for me. There you Kenneth Kinney 30:09
go. Alright, number three cheese flavors. This may sound weird, but there's a it'll make sense later mozzarella or cheddar. Stan Phelps 30:22
I'm a mozzarella guy. I grew up in New York. I love pizza, especially like a good thin crust, brick oven pizza with like, really good mozzarella. Kenneth Kinney 30:37
Soy cheddar is the flavor of cheese on the goldfish snacks. So that was that was why that almost made sense. So Alright, number four. Told you I made these tailor made for you number four. Stan Phelps 30:51
By the way, I just want to I want to say this I when I wrote the original book, purple goldfish. I lived in Norwalk, Connecticut. And so literally, I lived about a mile from Westport, Connecticut. And that's where Pepperidge farms started. Nice. So that there is a little bit of, I would say nexus between me being inspired by that. In fact, I write about going into their factory store in the first book and having an experience. Kenneth Kinney 31:23
Great point. All right, number four, Swedish Fish, or Sour Patch Stan Phelps 31:31
Swedish all the day I'm more of a sweet than a than a sour guy. Kenneth Kinney 31:37
I always thought they look like you know, little goldfish. They're not but the only significant difference is the addition of tartaric acid, which gives Sour Patch Kids the sour tastes, but they're made by the same company that was actually not know that I didn't either. And that's full of useless trivia like that shark Trivia Night. I'm your guy. Alright, number five. And the most important question that you're going to be asked today is biscuits or cornbread. Stan Phelps 32:03
Oh, I living in North Carolina for almost the last 10 years Kenneth Kinney 32:09
where they have inferior barbecue to Memphis barbecue? Stan Phelps 32:14
Yes, by the way, Jim, and Nick's Have you ever been to jail? Yeah, six. Yeah. So I'm a cornbread guy. So I love the fact this is a little extra that they do is that they have those little I forget what they call them. The little cornbread thing. So I'm more cornbread. Put a little chatter a little jalapeno flavor. I'm right there. Kenneth Kinney 32:36
Good man. All right. So stay where can people find out more about you keep up with the troubling of books. See see on stage, read your thoughts in more. Stan Phelps 32:48
Best way is my website. So stand phelps.com or Stan Phelps speaks.com. I'll take you to the same place. I also try to try to try to eat my own dog food. I lopsided what I do on LinkedIn. So that's also a great place I write every day under a hashtag called the 1299. Kenneth Kinney 33:14
Awesome. And yeah, your your blogs are great. I've seen quite a few of them. Stand. Thank you so much for being with us today on A Shark's Perspective. Stan Phelps 33:21
Kenneth, it was my pleasure. Kenneth Kinney 33:29
So there was my conversation with Stan Phelps, a speaker, the best selling author of the Go Fish series of books, a Forbes contributor, and a marketing instructor for the AMA School of marketing and Rutgers Business School. Let's take a look at three key takeaways from a conversation with him. Kenneth Kinney 33:44
First, don't focus just on customers. You hear me talk about employee engagement all the time on this show as well. And he eloquently talks about putting an even greater emphasis on employees to for delivering that great experience. The greatest experience in the world won't be seen or heard unless that transformation and those rewards if you will extend to your employees who deliver the experience, from marketing, to sales to billing to customer service at all. It's pretty easy to measure customer views. But true employee sentiment is well worth your measurement investments as well. Kenneth Kinney 34:15
Second, how do you stand out this is a topic both Stan are passionate about and it's one of my main keynotes is on this subject as well. Stan believes that there are basically only two ways to be different. One is to do more of what makes you inherently unique compared to the normal and to its to do purposefully less of what makes everyone else normal. He also points out that what many may see as a weakness or in this case, something that makes them less normal. Other smarter brands understand that the things that they may think are flaws should be embraced those flaws make you feel awesome. And I may disagree somewhat on how or how many but he spot on. We lean too much into the Yang, but we definitely should embrace our Yang. Kenneth Kinney 34:56
Third, the pushback, often find there's too much of that From brands and agencies alike, brands and agencies don't always tie these experiences enough truly to the DNA they become a great campaign I get to get you in the door so to speak. However, the second or third or fourth time someone comes back this air quote campaign idea becomes expected. And it's part of the expectation and differentiation. The marketing has to be good that sizzle. But ultimately the steak has to be great or nothing else that got you in the door matters. Spend more time on marketing the experience of the steak, and less on the sizzle. If you want to keep them coming back again and again and again. And if you don't eat meat, then well this idea will be lost in you because tofu should never sizzle or be eaten anyway, so yuck. There you go. Kenneth Kinney 35:43
Got a question? Send me an email to Kenneth at a shark's perspective.com. Kenneth Kinney 35:47
Thank you again for the privilege of your time. I am so thankful to everyone who listens. Kenneth Kinney 35:52
Please consider writing a review and letting me know your thoughts on the show. Kenneth Kinney 35:55
So it's back to the water for me, not a bowl or in a tank the back of the ocean for another deeper dive. Please join us on the next episode of A Shark's Perspective.
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