****Please forgive any and all transcription errors as this was transcribed by Otter.ai.****

Linda Harrison 0:00

Hi, I'm Linda Harrison and you're listening to A Shark's Perspective.

[intro music]

Kenneth Kinney 0:20

Welcome back, and thank you for joining A Shark's Perspective. I am Kenneth Kinney, but friends call me Shark. I'm a keynote speaker, strategist, a shark diver, host of this show, and your Chief Shark Officer.

Kenneth Kinney 0:32

It's been a minute, but we're diving into data again today, particularly third party data. Successful marketing campaigns very often start with targeting the right audience, and that's whether you're a global CPG brand or even just the solopreneur. But understanding the quality of data and how that is assembled, its fluidity, considerations with data privacy rights, changing laws, ethics, and even knowledge by the marketers using that data can be difficult for people to understand, especially when supplementing a campaign from a third party data supplier, even if you work with one that's historically well known and respected. So when building a large campaign, are you a data guru?

Kenneth Kinney 1:11

Linda Harrison is the Senior Director of Data Strategy, also known as data guru at Acxiom Corporation.

Kenneth Kinney 1:17

And on this episode, we'll discuss what marketers are doing right and wrong with third party data, building out segments scaling the cookieless world, the art and science of data first, second, third party data, finding the right people for the right campaign, the fluidity of data, personas, cross channel campaigns, where and how marketers shop for data, being a good steward, how awesome it was, or not to work with me in the past data gurus love gurus and Tony Robbins thermal baths and natural hotsprings racetracks, Tigers zebras gators, and Arkansharks, and a lot, lot more. So let's tune into the data guru with, you guessed it, the shark guru on this episode of A Shark's Perspective.

Kenneth Kinney 2:04

Linda, welcome to A Shark's Perspective. Would you please give us a little background on your career to date?

Linda Harrison 2:10

Yeah, so I'm Linda Harrison. I work at Acxiom. I'm a Senior Director of Digital Strategy. And I'm based in Arkansas the hotbed of digital marketing. I've been at Acxiom a really long time, I won't say how long, but what I'd like to say is that I've reinvented myself over time, right? I answered an ad, that agency put out that said, I have two brains, so that I like analytical work and creative work. And that's the joy of data guru. So what we do is we help recommend, deploy and strategize with our clients about third party data. So what's working in the marketplace? What type of audiences would resonate with their clientele? So it's an art and a science and a lot of fun?

Kenneth Kinney 2:59

I know, you know, this is gonna be incredibly difficult for me, because I'm so young. But could you let us know what a newspaper is? Is that something we find on Twitter for trending news? Yes. So

Linda Harrison 3:10

USA today.com. Okay. wsj.com. Back when companies actually put ads in the newspaper, got to answer them. Yeah. No.

Kenneth Kinney 3:22

Well, you've been at Acxiom for over two decades, right? Yes, I'll admit to that. Okay. So would it be fair to say that, during all that time that the most important, impactful years of your career, were the ones where we work together?

Linda Harrison 3:36

Absolutely. Good answer. Good answer couldn't be any better.

Kenneth Kinney 3:39

Yeah. I'm always interested in this conversation. And I love having the data guru on the show. What are marketers doing right, with third party data today? And what are they doing wrong? And really, what I'm trying to ask is, where's the level of knowledge today that most marketers and advertisers have with leveraging third party data and building out those segments and scaling them up? And I say that in context to all the changes that have happened in 2021, with the announcement of us moving towards a cookieless world?

Linda Harrison 4:10

Yeah. So you know, third party data is going to survive, you know, in my mind, it's much ado about nothing, which sounds terrible, but we'll always find a way to inform the audience selection, right. Acxiom still has a great way as many partners do to get their data into the ecosphere, right? May not be cookies, it might be ramp IDs, it might be UU IDs might be UID to Dotto, whatever it is, it's going to happen, right? What we need to focus on is finding the right people for the right campaign. So where do you want to be in the sales funnel in the marketing journey for your clientele, and then how are you going to measure results? That's What really matters, right? So when I understand a campaign, what are they going to measure? So what KPIs do they have? Are you looking for actions? Are you looking for awareness? What are you looking for? And then what type of data matches that, right? So, you know, the further you go down in the funnel, the more niche the data is, the fewer scale you have, and the more it's going to cost you. So many times you want to do more than one thing at the same time. So that's why I typically, typically recommend multiple things, right? So it might be, let's just get awareness. Let's also try and get them in the store, right? And then it's your job to help them buy, you need to have a great offer. It's more than just the audience. It's the creative, it's the placement, my job is to really focus on the audience selection, are they

Kenneth Kinney 6:01

even that cross pollenization across channels, whether it's email, addressable TV, banner ads, whatever it is,

Linda Harrison 6:09

right. And that's the beauty of how things are changing over time, is that you can help find that same audience across devices, across platforms. Everywhere I go, I'm going to see that same great ad. And hopefully, it's more than just static banner ads that you're including social video, things that really resonate with your customers.

Kenneth Kinney 6:35

Well, I was a big fan of Acxiom, obviously, when I worked there, as well. And so I, you know, wore the jersey proudly. But it was something that I inherently believed about data when I went there. And then we'd have conversations with a lot of agencies and a lot of the direct brands who were doing the advertising. But I still find that a lot of conversations that I have, even today, there's still a strong lack of knowledge about what's possible with targeting. Am I unfair in that belief? Or is that sort of the same thing? Maybe more nicely said by you? Do you sort of see the same thing?

Linda Harrison 7:08

Yeah, there's a lot of that going around. Still, they don't, there's so much data out there, that they don't even know where to start? Right? And that's why you need someone to help curate it. Right? So are you going really broad lets you choose demographic data, let's let's find age, gender presence of children type things, right. So if you're just doing awareness, you should know who's going to buy your product or be interested in your service, you know, AARP is going to have a different audience than pampers baby diapers, right? They're just different groups. So to kind of buy those two things, but then you might need to roll into more detailed information to find who has an affinity for your brand, or your competitor. Right? So you want to think about those things as you start to go through the customer journey and into the sales funnel, right? You want to have more affinities for different thing, or maybe a qualifier, right? So I had a client that was trying to do some lawn care products and services. Well, you know, if I'm renting that home, I don't really care about the weeds in my yard. It's not my problem, right? But if I own the home, hopefully I care a little bit more, or my neighbors care. Right? So being a homeowner, and you know, what kind of yard is it? Am I in a high rise apartment building? Again, I don't care because it's super does it. So you have to think through those types of things to help qualify the audience into people that are going to resonate with the product. And then as we go further down, we want to start thinking about them taking action. Right, so are they qualified to take action? I might be super interested in Lamborghinis. Right. I might watch and complete videos all day long about Lamborghinis because I think they're awesome. But do I have the capacity to purchase one? Well, I might need to get a raise before that happens, right? So we got to think about those capacity, location type things as well. So it's kind of the combination of things that helps bring the audience to life to help really make what we're recommending work in the marketplace. Again, that art and science right, that's what I do.

Kenneth Kinney 9:28

Exactly. So you touched on several things I want to come back to with respect to privacy. What would a respected data provider like Acxiom do to market to people or rather not to market to people? Maybe the better question that a brand or agency may not consider and I don't mean that a brand or agency would intentionally do the wrong thing. But with respect to data provider that treats that data, like it's near and dear like it's a child with the sole focus of respecting the right thing to do.

Linda Harrison 9:56

Right. So Acxiom puts in a lot of privacy rules from the get go. Right? So what's considered sensitive today, and what's considered sensitive in the future are going to be different, right, we're at a little bit more of a privacy influx than we've been in the past where there's some state laws going to go into effect about targeting based on ethnicity. For example, there's also things like, based on your sexual orientation, that's just something that can be very sensitive. Some people can be fired based on their, their health information if you're a smoker, based on your sexual orientation. So we don't want to offer campaigns based on that type of data, we don't even carry that type of data in many cases, because it can be toxic, right? We don't want to lead someone to go down the wrong path. So what sensitive now what's sensitive in the future can be very different. But there's things just like alcohol, right? crazily enough, I had to remind the client, hey, I'm only going to give you people aged 21 Plus. Because us, it's age 21. Plus. So same thing with casino gambling, they might want to use 18 Plus in some states, right? Because Oklahoma, for example, is 18. But Arkansas is 21. So we're gonna layer on a nation wide to help prevent booboos. Because if I make it 18 plus, and then they just open up that audience to more states that are 21. Plus, they're gonna get in the gotcha. And we don't want to have that happen. So we try and help advocate for doing the right things and prevent them from doing things that are just gonna get them in trouble.

Kenneth Kinney 11:56

So Acxiom is a third party data supplier, you work with a lot of partners that inform that data as well, how should a marketer then really look at data, whether it's first party, second party, third party, a lot of advertisers may have a large first party data file, and a lot of marketers think that's all you need. However, a lot of them don't realize that you and I used to run through all the time is that data is fluid, and things change. And it's what static today is, you know, 10% change, but by tomorrow, but some data suppliers, for example, have more credit card data, some have broader spectrum of input, some have this, that or the other, it's more paprika, and more, you know, time and whatever else. How do you sort of look at the type of data that people need to consider? And all the things that go into what makes a good data set?

Linda Harrison 12:48

Right? So you need the depth and breadth of data? Right? So when we're looking at a data source, we're looking at the niche of the provider? What do they do really, really well, right? So somebody who has an exact date of birth, I'm going to use that over somebody who gives me a five year age range, right? So that way, when somebody has a birthday, I know about it, right? Because I have that exact date of birth. I also look at how broad is their data? Do they have data across the whole us? Or do they only have information in New York City, while New York City is a key care about? It's not the end all be all, especially for people on the other side of the country? Right? So I want to have nationally representative information, I want to have data that is balanced towards accuracy, right? I can't get, for example, income to be exactly right. Now, a provider might say they have the best income data in the world. But typically, if you had the best data in the world, it's either too expensive in the marketplace, or there's not enough scale. Right? I have exactly. KENNETH Kinney keys, information. And that's the only person I know about and the whole us not scalable. So I want to balance across those things. And you want frequent updates. So that whether it's your first party data, second party data, zero party data, if you want to admit that to type, and third party data, you want to make sure that it's frequently updated. It's got the depth, breadth, scale and accuracy that you can live with at a reasonable price, right. So you want to have all the different things that you can understand about your first party data to then find look alikes. Amongst third party data.

Kenneth Kinney 14:39

Well, in the reason I ask this, I get such a mixed answers from people that either I'm speaking to directly or they have spoken with somebody else. There are 1000s and 1000s of third party data suppliers. A lot of them are junk. And a lot of them you know, they'll take a list from from a respected partner and they'll append it with something of their own information, and then it becomes their own big list. And if you were to ask a lot of marketers today who don't know, the data market, for example, they don't know where to really shop, very interesting to see where people go to find data anymore, because there's just so many suppliers. And not all data is the same.

Linda Harrison 15:21

But on the same part, data is becoming a little bit commoditized. Right? That it's ubiquitous. So what you want to do is find a data provider that can give you the majority of what you need, and then you can fill in with someone else. If there's something bespoke that you really need, or they can help you find it. What can happen is that you can find a data provider that you don't know, if they've got all of the different terms and qualifications done. Is it permission for the this marketing purpose? You know, has the consumer the ability to opt out? Do you have all those checklists, things done on the front end, and that's why working with a known entity make sense whether it's Acxiom are someone else, right? You want to make sure that they're doing all of the things that are going to make data quality out there for you so that you're not going to turn around and find out that I bought data that consumers are not opting out from that. California privacy permissions are not taken into account, all those things that can just at the end of the day, get you in a lot of trouble.

Kenneth Kinney 16:36

One of the things I think that's interesting today is that generationally, people treat data much different. There's the differentiation we have, across states, and across continents now with what Europe does versus what we do. But it also is a certain age range that's older and a certain certain age rage, that's younger, some like to be tracked. A lot of people like me don't want to be tracked, we want to be off the off the digital grid, you know whether aluminum foil hat sometimes, but knowing the capabilities of how we can target, it's completely understandable how much of data now is shaped generationally by what you're seeing a lot of younger people except with all tracking.

Linda Harrison 17:19

That's true, the younger individuals tend to share data more freely, freely, right. But sometimes it's still very shallow information that's provided, you might be willing to share what you're watching what you're liking, things like that. But then the true sense of self is still, you're not going to get that self reported as much. So you have to model information based on what we do know, to fill in the blanks and be willing to try different things, right, that there's not a silver bullet to capture Gen Z, and not all Gen Z is the same. There's a person on my marketing team that wrote an article that said that she's a geriatric Gen Z at age 26. Yeah, right. Well, I know poor thing. You know, she's just on the edge of the tick tock, as I like to call it, you have to use thought and when you're really old, and you're really old.

Kenneth Kinney 18:20

So what are we mostly what we're talking about today is mostly about direct to consumer, what's the recommendation you have for the b2b world when they look at leveraging a third party data provider?

Linda Harrison 18:31

So Dun and Bradstreet is that 800 pound gorilla in the room. Right? They're hard to beat. They've been doing it over 200 years 200. So they certainly know b2b. What Acxiom has done, and I'm not just here to talk about Acxiom, but it's an interesting way we've taken their data set is to find the individuals that work at those companies. So now you can target me across my home and my work life. So you can know that I work for a large company that has sales volume of over x, or number of employees over why, but also that I ride a motorcycle that I like to cook that I drive a Lincoln, whatever it is, so that you can target the whole person across my life. Right. So now I can find HR professionals that like to golf to take them out to a campaign, right, that I'm not going to talk to the people that hate golfing, because, you know, it's my golf events that I'm trying to get them to come to and to sponsor, et cetera.

Kenneth Kinney 19:37

Great point. So

Kenneth Kinney 19:38

describe if you will, sort of in your own little Linda data group, perfect world, what is an optimal campaign for you and how would that campaign be built across different

Kenneth Kinney 19:50

channels?

Linda Harrison 19:52

An optimal campaign, a campaign that the agency or client knows Sure they're trying to reach, right, they understand the persona that can give me some good ideas on where to get started. And then they're willing to take a risk. On some additional things a little land Yap, I like to throw in, as they'd say, in New Orleans, have something a little extra, right? Maybe you came to me with all these great MRI type statements, I want my technology to say, Wow, right, your agency told you that. But finding those people is difficult, except for a tie back to MRI. Right? So I can help you with those parts. But then let me let me go out on the limb and test something new that I've provided. Maybe it's some purchase data I have, maybe it's some attitudinal. Maybe it's just layering on some additional demographics or in market to see how well this audience performs. Do some A B, split testing, you know, resonate, iterate, let me know how it's working. And let's change it and refine it. Right? Data doesn't stay in a vacuum your campaign shouldn't either. So let's keep iterating and doing a champion challenger type of approach.

Kenneth Kinney 21:15

So let's talk a

Kenneth Kinney 21:16

little bit about channels. When you look at the all the digital channels we have with the way TV's going with connected TV, with email, which you mentioned earlier, how do you sort of look at doing a cross channel view with leveraging third party data?

Linda Harrison 21:31

Well, it's gotten so much easier, because PII is ubiquitous in a way, right? We can take PII and transform it into anonymous information and find the same audience, email, direct mail. So many times we're doing a pre approved offer, or now we're doing email first, because it's a much lower cost per engagement, right. And then the people that we can't reach verse via email, we're doing direct mail to them, then we're also augmenting the campaign by having awareness campaigns at the same time, maybe on connected TV, in display, etc. So that we're trying to make sure that it resonates and hits the eyeballs of the right people. Because most of us are doing cross channel all day long. Do you watch TV and TV alone? Or do you have your phone out? And or a tablet, or something else that you're multitasking with Joe? Absolutely. My husband hates it. When I multitask. I'm like, No, I'm watching me says you're not watching and said, I'm watching enough of that. Because it's slow going, and I'm doing something fun at the same time. So cross channel is where it's at.

Kenneth Kinney 22:50

Personas, you brought up something about personas. And I have this theory that almost all personas look generically the same. A lot of agencies shape it to where they have some pretty common familiar buckets to where they bucket people into. And then you think of the capabilities of large data providers, like an Acxiom, or Experian, Epsilon, any of those, you can go so much deeper with how you can segment people out. How should people explore, going beyond their basic personas with better targeting?

Linda Harrison 23:24

You're right, many of the personas are genericized. No, it's Sydney. Oh, great. Here's Sydney again. Oh, and his buddy Jake. Awesome, right? So you're getting that type of Persona information that has so many qualifiers, there's really only one of those people in the whole us that meets every criteria. First of all, you know, three out of 20 might be a great audience scale. But what they can do is actually take their current first party file of the people that have the products or services that made you say it was going to be Jake in the first place. And let's see what demographic psychographic purchase behavior in market tendencies already are there for that. We call it a data portrait analysis, or we're just running some metrics, right, building an index of how frequently is this seen for your first party file versus a national average? So trying to see is this unique? Yeah, I'll get some heads nodding in the room. AARP already knows that their file tends to be 50 plus, because that's a qualifier to get the product, right. But they may not know some of the wealth criteria or number of cars or maybe how many of them are raising grandchildren. They might then have a little head scratcher that says, Oh, we didn't know that that was so prevalent in our audience. Maybe we need to open up another product line for grandparents that are raising their grandchildren so that some of the things that you care about because now you got a teen driver, we never knew we had to have stuff for teen drivers. My file average age is 70 years old. Right? So they can open up new products and services now that they have new information.

Kenneth Kinney 25:18

Yeah, that's such a great point. What should people understand third party not being able to do?

Linda Harrison 25:26

We can't do everything, you have to put in some of the hard work yourself. Right. Amen to that. So I have some direct to consumer brands that really have high expectations that I'm going to have purchase behavior of their exact make model of product, like, you know, I just don't have that, you know, CPG data can get fairly brand specific, right? If it's loyalty data, but that thing gets modeled out, I don't know exactly who bought Kellogg's cornflakes in the small size, yellow box blue lid, I just nobody knows that. Right? You know how many bought it overall, but you don't know who specifically bought it. So we have to live with a little bit of a broader lens and say, Okay, who likes cereal? Who likes cornflakes? Let's go with that. And then we can iterate from there.

Kenneth Kinney 26:31

And to your point earlier, it's you still got to do the work. You can have the most precision targeting in the world. But if the offers written badly, if the experience is horrible on the website, there's so many contributing factors that the targeting you can improve. And it's actually pretty easy. As you said earlier, it's pretty easy to do this now. But you still got to do the work on the backend. It's not an adult solution. So Linda, I asked this of all my guests are in Hot Springs. There's no sharks that I knew of in the lakes near hot springs. But luckily,

Linda Harrison 27:02

luckily they keep saying fortunately gators here.

Kenneth Kinney 27:05

Well, there was there was a movie called Arkanshark that was horrible. One of those dumb shark movies, but I assists of all of my guests on the show. What is your favorite kind of shark and why?

Linda Harrison 27:16

My favorite kind of shark? A tiger shark because it sounds even more ferocious. It's you're taking the cross pollination of tigers and sharks

Kenneth Kinney 27:29

I love it. Chris, I got a zebra shirt shark. That's another one. So Linda....

Linda Harrison 27:33

Does it sound as though they're vicious though?

Kenneth Kinney 27:36

No, they're puppy dogs no great whites....

Kenneth Kinney 27:37

Sounds like they would just eat grass.

Kenneth Kinney 27:39

Exactly. Grass. Exactly. Alright, well, Linda, it's a special time in the show. Are you ready for the five most interesting and important questions that you're going to be asked today?

Kenneth Kinney 27:49

I'm ready. All right.

Kenneth Kinney 27:51

Number one, you are the data guru. But let's talk about movies with gurus. Would you rather watch The Love Guru starring Mike Myers about the board in America and raised in an Indian ashram man who returned to his native land to seek fortune as a spiritual self help expert or the net the Netflix documentary? I am not your guru. The behind the scenes look at Tony Robbins mammoth seminar date with destiny?

Linda Harrison 28:19

Love Guru for sure.

Kenneth Kinney 28:21

Oh, that was a horrible movie. I couldn't finish it but I highly recommend the Tony Robbins show. Alright, number two. You have friends visiting Hot Springs, Arkansas where you live. They want an experience that is authentically hot springs-ish. You're taking them to either a day of racing at Oaklawn the beautiful horse racing track and casino resort or a day enjoying the world renowned thermal baths and the non natural hot springs that help hot springs get its name?

Linda Harrison 28:55

I take him to the racetrack.

Kenneth Kinney 28:57

Why so?

Linda Harrison 28:59

There's excitement. There's horses. There's gambling. Drinking.

Kenneth Kinney 29:05

Yeah, I would agree. I just I was curious why but plus, I think when I texted you last week about this, you were at the casino anyway. So there's a softball question

Linda Harrison 29:13

Number one a jackpot. So

Kenneth Kinney 29:15

Oh, nice. Number three. Alright, so we talked a little bit about cookies. They're going away, but not the ones that really matter. So number three is chocolate chip or macadamia nut cookies?

Kenneth Kinney 29:27

Chocolate Chip.

Kenneth Kinney 29:29

Okay. Do you know why cookie....

Linda Harrison 29:30

You?

Kenneth Kinney 29:31

Macadamia nut. But do you know why cookie campaigns were always my favorite?

Kenneth Kinney 29:36

Because they're very delicious.

Kenneth Kinney 29:39

Not very good. I know. Number four Google or Apple.

Linda Harrison 29:45

For what?

Kenneth Kinney 29:46

Targeting in campaigns.

Linda Harrison 29:48

Oh, Google. It's everywhere

Kenneth Kinney 29:51

All right. Well, that's true. Number five. And the most important question that you're going to be asked today is biscuits or cornbread.

Linda Harrison 30:00

corn bread.

Kenneth Kinney 30:02

Why? So?

Linda Harrison 30:04

It's that sweet, buttery. It's just delicious.

Kenneth Kinney 30:11

Okay. All right. So Linda, where can people find out more about you find out more about the data guru. Keep up with what you're doing and more.

Linda Harrison 30:20

You can find me on LinkedIn, of course. I think I'm Linda Harrison, data guru, and then email linda.harrison@acxiom.com.

Kenneth Kinney 30:31

And what's the what's the data guru podcast?

Linda Harrison 30:34

It's out there and around the world. Its data guru podcast, I believe. Awesome.

Kenneth Kinney 30:41

Linda, thank you so much for being with us today on the sharks perspective.

Linda Harrison 30:46

Thanks for having me. It was fun.

Kenneth Kinney 30:52

So there was my conversation with Linda Harrison, the Senior Director of Data Strategy, aka data guru at Acxiom Corporation. Let's take a look at three key takeaways from a conversation with her.

Kenneth Kinney 31:03

First, Linda brings up an amazing reminder, you can target with incredible precision and insights today, and I've worked with Linda on many a campaign doing so it can make a major impact on the success of a campaign. However, it's just one component, albeit a very important one. But many lean audit as a crutch or believe it's the only answer as to why your campaign did or did not succeed. You could apply this example with third party data in a million dollar campaign, or a one on one message you send to someone in an individual email, for example, you may reach the right person, but it's still on you to button up the offer the landing page, the messaging, the ads, the customer experience, the personalization and automation. You know all this, I know that you do. But there's so many other factors to what works and what does not. Nevertheless, start with targeting the right audience with the right context for the right reasons. And she cites that an optimal campaign for her is one where an agency or brand really knows who they want to target. Easier said than always done. But do that and then start testing something new ad split test and refine it again and again. And again, keep iterating.

Kenneth Kinney 32:07

Second, a lover reminder, we all know there's a ton of data out there. But honestly, most people don't have nearly enough knowledge and how to assemble it me personally. That's why I recommend companies who have a solid breadth and depth of sources that inform that data to create a quality dataset. There are 1000s and 1000s of companies who sell data and lists and be careful. They're not all the same. Data is incredibly fluid. No one's data is perfect, including axiom, but there are a lot of companies whose data as well, chocolate ice cream cones. For marketers who want to grow and scale she reminds us that we've got to start with the targeting having that understanding with not just your first party list, but additional volume from a quality larger third party dataset is important to campaign success. And it's the mix of the right factors often going beyond ordinary targeting and segments. She brings up a great point no quote, it's kind of the combination of things that helps bring the audience to life to help really make what we're recommending work in the marketplace. It's that art and science we discussed. Reputable data companies help with that knowledge and there are several I can recommend. Data gurus like Linda though make that experience even better.

Kenneth Kinney 33:11

Third, y is an in depth knowledge into the data use a worthwhile spin of your time, because you want to build trust with your customers and their data. Even considering how much data we exchange today. It's imperative to be good stewards of customer data. So wherever you get your data from or exchange it with respect where that data came from, and where the rules and ethics come in to data privacy.

Kenneth Kinney 33:32

Got a question send me an email to Kenneth at a sharks perspective.com.

Kenneth Kinney 33:36

Thank you again for the privilege of your time and I'm so thankful to everyone who listens.

Kenneth Kinney 33:40

Please consider writing a review and letting me know your thoughts on the show.

Kenneth Kinney 33:43

Data is fluid, and guess what sort of the waters where I'm going to be diving next. Join us on the next episode of A Shark's Perspective.

[music]