****Please forgive any and all transcription errors as this was transcribed by Otter.ai.****

Cy Wakeman 0:00

Hello, I am Cy Wakeman and you're listening to A Shark’s Perspective.

(Music - shark theme)

Kenneth Kinney 0:21

Welcome back and thank you for joining A Shark’s Perspective.

Kenneth Kinney 0:24

I am Kenneth Kinney but friends call me Shark. I'm a keynote speaker, a strategist, a shark diver, host of the show, and your Chief Shark Officer.

Kenneth Kinney 0:33

How often do you get caught up in drama? How often do you see a snake, but it turns out to be a rope. Many people simply think of thought and believe it wholeheartedly and often get caught up in their own beliefs that are often fueled by drama. Our guest today is research that shows that people spend roughly two and a half hours a day caught up in drama rather than being productive. But leaders need to manage that drum as well as see reality for what it is. That being said, how often everyday do you turn ropes into snakes? Now life is messy. So in your own life, are you feeling drama or productivity?

Kenneth Kinney 1:07

Cy Wakeman is a drama researcher, an international leadership speaker, named a top global leadership group by Global Gurus, a consultant, a New York Times bestselling-author, and the author of “Life's Messy, Live Happy: Things Don't Have to Be Perfect for You to Be Content.”

Kenneth Kinney 1:23

And on this episode we'll discuss researching drama, better leadership, home at the beach, a messy life, 816 hours a year, the difference of a reality based leader and the lessons we've learned thus far, solving problems before solving problems, spirituality, grace, ego where empathy and sympathy converge, something about a pack mule, nice whales and mean dolphins, social media versus cable news and a lot lot more.

Kenneth Kinney 1:49

So let's tune into reality bass leader speak with a shark who always finds his renewal with more time in the water on this episode of A Shark’s Perspective.

[intro music]

Kenneth Kinney 2:01

Cy, welcome to A Shark’s Perspective. Would you please give us a brief overview of your background and career today?

Cy Wakeman 2:06

Absolutely. I started out in college I wanted to be to do economic development in third world countries. So I didn't end up there. But I did become a social worker and counselor, and from there managed healthcare entities. And during my time in helping people help our patients, I use the comp of my therapy and my leadership to give people a reality based philosophy on how they can bring their most evolved self to work. So I spent the last 25 years in leadership creating great results in great work environments, and then teaching other people how to do the same.

Kenneth Kinney 2:48

And so you lived in Nebraska and Iowa and you're in Baja Mexico now. So what's what's living like at the beach? I've done it several times in my life, I pretty much feel like I'm there every day. But what's that, like, now for you with where you are in life? And also what is it like for you as a speaker?

Cy Wakeman 3:05

Absolutely. So I have found that the water is very restorative to me. And it's a place I naturally come to whether it was intentional or not, I sometimes wake up and find myself at the water. And for me, the water is baptism, sometimes I'm on my knees, waiting to be restored. Other times, it just brings such a good perspective and some time out. But I absolutely love the water, I always feel renewed. And so I used to live on a lake that's as close as I could get to the beach. And now I live every day looking out my front window at the beach, and I study and research drama in the workplace, and energy that takes us away from results or well being at work. And I think for me the the water is definitely a place where I can come and really be completely in nature, completely away from any type of drama or emotional waste. So it's very sacred to me.

Kenneth Kinney 4:09

Yeah, same here. It may not be for everybody. But if you would put a cubicle with a view of the ocean, the lack of stress that companies would have to deal with would be unfathomable. But it's great for me to say mental health. I love the quote in your book that we're going to talk about as well. But in your newest book, life's messy, live happy things don't have to be perfect for you to be content you talked about. I've come back to the water because once again my life is messy. So talk about where your life was messy to where you got to write this book.

Cy Wakeman 4:40

Sure. The different times I've been at the water it's kind of my place I come to surrender so when I've tried my way and I've tried to mess it through and pass the tests and and do really well I have put myself at the water in my 20s I was homeless and lived in a pup tent for quite a few months at the edge of the gates reservoir, and most recently, I've made many trips back to the water. But most recently, around the time of COVID, I had found out that my husband was sleeping our marriage. I you know, the business we're in speaking your and speaking and speaking, had completely stopped millions of dollars of bookings canceled

Kenneth Kinney 5:24

your sighting, I've never heard that in

Cy Wakeman 5:27

the stock market crash. I had actually come down here because my nephew in late February had been killed in a horrible car accident. And I thought I'll just get through the funeral and get his mom and, and my family kind of in shape and come down and just spend a couple days at the water. And I came down to recover from that death, just to kind of get my head on straight. And that's when I found out that the business was gone, the stock market had crashed. I actually was stranded here on the ocean. Looking at the ocean for three months during COVID. We were locked down here in Mexico and even walking the beach there were armed guards on the beach. But I I learned enough Spanish to ask for grace, like at least let me walk the beach and I spent probably six months walking five to six miles a day at the water's edge grieving crying. And in pure bliss, like the water just it restores me. But I remember the feeling that both thrilled and concern to me. When all everything was gone. And my team said there's no reason to come back. In fact, you can't get back. You're there on your own, completely alone. Time Out sabbatical. I remember the poem barn burnt down. Now I can see the moon. And it was just another reminder that I I need to surrender and not acquiesce but surrender and participate and trust the process. And know that I get my I need to be and that I have everything I need. And it really taught me the lesson. At that moment of my life. That's my, my favorite word of that time was enough, I have enough. And I want to make sure I'm loving other people in a way they know what they're enough. And it was just a really good rebirth that this seems to have lasted now longer than other rebirth stuff. A lot of there have lasted,

Kenneth Kinney 7:38

you know what I admire? Knowing your background, and then having read the book, and then seeing you speak again just a couple of months ago at National Speakers Association where he gave a killer performance and influence 2022 Was that you you kind of open up if you will, there's a lot of people who have a facade as leadership speakers, and nothing is missing. And you open everything up talking just as you did. You talked about your being homeless, your divorce, going through issues with I believe his name was Joe, and the fictional name you gave for an old boyfriend with drug usage and everything else and you just kind of open that up. And it it seems so often that people are afraid to maybe not afraid, but they just don't want to open that up. So I'm kind of curious, when you went through the process of thinking through, I'm going to tell all of my story. Without it being just a trauma dump. How do you think that really helps you become a better leader?

Cy Wakeman 8:37

Well, I think, first of all, my publisher during COVID SP, you know, people talk about how your work helps them at home and at work. Can you write a book telling people how to live at home in their personal lives? Am I full body responsibles? Absolutely not. I'm not going to write a book telling people how to live, I'd be willing to write about telling people how I've lived. And one of the things I've been known for onstage is it is so easy to put out their advice for others and to critique external situations. In fact, it's so easy to take and intellectualize your own feelings or your own grievances. And that's all the work of the ego. And that happens to be a research drama. I talk to people about how to bypass the ego. And for me, I've been known for years to really walk with the message that we all have this human condition. We all have a low self and a high self. Our whole goal in life is to evolve ourselves, internally force that wisdom through contemplation, self reflection and in spiritual practice and dedication, so that we can walk through the world more skillfully, because the goal of walking through the world is to love big and we can't love big if we haven't done our own work as a leader and We can't do it skillfully. If we haven't done that work, and so when I started to write, I really wanted the book not to be a trauma dump, or I didn't want to tell other people's stories about what they had done to me, I tried to be very clean in the book, about the lessons I learned about me in the midst of others doing what others do, because the main message I want to give people is life's messy, and it doesn't have to be perfect, you don't have to wait until you've figured it out. Or you can pass the test are you you know, moved through perfectly like the living is in the mess, the living is being lonely as Brene, brown tough spot out there to be vulnerable in the in the mess. Some people trying to clean up their life before they live, other people think they're up self help project, and try and improve themselves before they. But it's only meeting in the middle when an imperfect me, me really imperfect world that we're living in 3d, that, you know, we're living the full spectrum of life. And I just wanted to invite people by example, to live the full spectrum, and to normalize the thoughts that a lot of speakers talk about having mastery, that's only half alive, when COVID hit people are like, I'm gonna go out and speak on, you know how to hold a Zoom meeting. And I'm going to tell people what they need to do. And these times, I'm like, these are unprecedented times, I'm going to instead of having impact in the world, let myself be impacted by the world. Instead of mastery, I want to sit in the mystery, and allow what needs to be undone about me to be undone. And a lot of us move through the world so guarded, that we won't allow ourselves to be evolved and grown and softens by what's happening to us. And I just I wanted to go first, if that helps other people

Kenneth Kinney 12:07

well, and we get so caught up in just looking at the packaging itself and talk about if you dive deeper. And if you know everybody sort of created themselves as thinks themselves is the next Tony Robbins. And if you go back and you look at Tony's own journey, his life was a complete mess. He opens it up if you dive deeper and listen to him, but I think so many people just think they can to your point intellectualize something, and then, you know, give advice for everybody else. But I know it's your

Cy Wakeman 12:35

marketing, I think that's crappy brands work, oh apps to be honest. Because, um, we've gone beyond that, like, we want brands that are socially responsible. And we want brands that are transparent and honest. And, you know, if you screw up, you screw up, and you come to that. So I mean, if you look at from a branding perspective, I've never said the answers of voices, I have some ideas. I tried to approach that with a lot of self reflection. And I just want to normalize for people that not one of us has the answer. But collectively, we're genius. And if we can just turn towards one another, and collaborate together, we'll be okay. But our current current way through the world where everyone has a master and everyone has an answer, and we just show that at each other. And the wind isn't producing kinds of solutions that include all people.

Kenneth Kinney 13:28

Well, you talk a lot about being a drama researcher. And again, I know read this in the book and saw you give this speech on stage. But if you could tell a quick version, if you will, about what happened on the mountain with the rope, snake.

Cy Wakeman 13:42

Sure. So I was involved in studying how the mind works in psychology and, and think, these universal principles and how we can use them in the workplace. So I said, emotional waste, how much energy in is diverted from results and happiness at work. And while he was intellectually studying the things, I just learned firsthand, the power of our thoughts left on questions. So one of the cool things that I get to do and I love to do is experiential learning. So you're a diver. I like taking people hiking or out of their element, whether it's in the water, even circling for some people is just a really mind blowing experience. And then we talked about leadership, and we use metaphor of hiking and apply that to how we lead. So I have this beautiful team out on the mountain. We've had great 10 miles, we're talking a lot about leadership. We're getting really deep, and we stopped for a break. And I'm looking out of the valley and it just hits me on a cellular level. How grateful and fortunate I am I'm thinking I can't believe they pay me to do this job. My reality was I was amazed. Using leaders I'm doing a job of my dreams I'm just I'm so I'm in heaven. And I go to lead the group on and on the corner of my eye I see something pretty big but squiggly up on the path and in a single thoughts snake. I know this I went from heaven to hell, I went from I can't believe they pay me to do this job to they do not pay me enough to do this job. And I went from Bliss and gratitude literally if I die in this moment, I am good to I don't want to die and I'm hyperventilating and I'm imagining the snake biting me and being like played with up the mountain and I'm scrambling for solutions and wondering if you know people help me if I get fit and I'm just like, it's so frustrating I can't remember how to save myself up like all like who remembers that John Wayne movie that when he got ready to cut a pocket knife and cut like an excess handle and suck his blood and thinking I'm gonna have to do this to save myself and all the calories I burned all the panic all the losing track of how blissful my life is, and I get closer to that squiggly thing and it wasn't a snake at all it was a rope off someone saddlebag and that brought home the lesson like how often every day I turned ropes in the next with thinking of pot and believing it like wholeheartedly and that really gave birth to a lot of my mind to quantify how often do we do this? And the answer is two and a half hours a day the average person has needlessly two and a half hours a day suffering come from the story they've added to a rope lying on the ground and I'm thinking about my death and hopefully my kids will know that I love them

Kenneth Kinney 16:53

well and you describe it I was trying to look it up is feeling like not just trauma but feeling like you needed to pee like a pack mule which I love that was great.

Cy Wakeman 17:07

Scare scared by first people relate to this is I always have to like pay like shit. And now I have to pay

Kenneth Kinney 17:15

that I've ever seen a pack mule pee pee but now I have I can visually I can think

Cy Wakeman 17:22

of y'all know it's a lot and in spirit.

Kenneth Kinney 17:25

If I ever see a packed meal P I'm gonna go sai Wakeman told me about that chapter. But where did you come up with a two and a half hours.

Cy Wakeman 17:35

So what I did was so many organizations were involved in Lean and Six Sigma. And they were able to isolate even just a few minutes in the process that they could determine what's waste. And they had a scientific way of its waste. And we improve a process we eliminate waste. And I you know, I was involved with a lot of counselors and therapists, I'm on the side of the science. I'm the girl who likes to quantify I want to know ROI. I'm the first person to ask, you know, will this training, change anything in my business and show in so I thought you know if I could contribute to the field an actual quantification of how much time they spend in drama. That would be fascinating. So I partnered with a futures company out of Chicago, and we came up first with survey instruments, where we had people identify and answer questions about their day and the types of behavior they found themselves involved in Eagle behavior, and venting tattling scorekeeping, meetings, after the meetings. And then we asked leaders questions about that way themselves, how much time they spend tending to things like this, coming through their open door. And through a series of points of validation. We saw just a very tight range, it was really shocking discovery that good performers, hardworking people spend on average, two and a half hours a day. Now they're still working, but they're working with a grudge. They're working thinking, I'll get this done, but I shouldn't have to. And they should have given me the information earlier. And this is the last minute requests. And so it's working with joy and misery, your choice. And knowing that suffering is optional. I really want to get down to 816 hours per headcount in the organization adds up to a crapload of productivity. But it's also time people spend suffering needlessly. And so I thought, if I could get to the sources of drama, and look at whether traditional leadership methods fueled drama or defuse them, are they actually working? And when I found out as most of what you were taught, over the past 20 years actually fuel Strama it's codependent it's, it's not shared accountability and not only does it feel trauma. It's not good on productivity, but it also is hurting people's engagement, and how they feel about their workplace. So I started to then modernize leadership philosophies for each source of drama, and teach people not to throw out what they've learned, but how to modernize it for today's world, and how to share accountability, instead of being paid, critical or directive, or managerial as the leader. And it really just opens up creativity and innovation. It really helps people take that energy they've been wasting and trauma and focus on why we can't shouldn't have to, to what if we could? And how could we have we started to see leaders help hope make a comeback, and people experience post traumatic growth and that our outcomes weren't predetermined by our circumstances. And it just helps people really elevate how they move through the world, it helped them get skilled up in a way that not others were focusing on. So it was kind of accidental in a lot of ways when I started did that research. And as happens that just got carried away. And now it's been really landmark for a lot of people.

Kenneth Kinney 21:20

Absolutely. Well, I mean, you said it was two and a half hours a day, 17 hours a week, 816 hours, 16 hours a year? Well, so ironically, you may have seen this in your research, you know, what, just about the average amount of time people spend on social media day now?

Cy Wakeman 21:39

Is that the same? I didn't know.

Kenneth Kinney 21:41

It's just under two hours, I actually looked it up. Because when I was kind of getting ready for this and thinking about your speech, I googled it and found several different surveys. And I think the US was two little over two, India was two and a half Philippines were like close to four. And Nigeria was just over four as well. And I found that very ironic that they, they kind of mirror because there's a lot of drama and trauma on

Cy Wakeman 22:09

on social media. However, I would say it depends on how you curate your feed very, because I yeah, I would tell you that I can have a grateful and I've been successful, but also very intentional. When I get on my Instagram, it is like great group therapy. Like I get just beautiful ideas on how to connect into the world. You know, we will find if you're in drama, you will find a place to exercise that. So people saw now that were many people are working from home did drama decrease? And I said, you know, no, because you took you home with you. And drama is more about how you see the world now did some other things decrease? Like people of color reporting that they feel safer? Because they aren't micro Grace all the time? Yeah. Did you know productivity increase for Sunday because of their increased flexibility? Yes. But we don't think that drama decreased all that much.

Kenneth Kinney 23:16

Yeah, just don't follow any political hashtags. Yeah, that'll help remove some drama, you know,

Cy Wakeman 23:21

you know, where we're at politically, really, is a way a common way that people deal with stress. Cognitive dissonance, is oversimplifying when many things can be true at the same time, over simplifying it to really black and white and polarized answers. And, you know, ICR polarization right now, a very typical way that humans toggle down and see the world to ego is understand, well, I have compassion for it. I just I hope we don't have tolerance for it. So I hope that we are talents level brings us to bring on people back together,

Kenneth Kinney 24:00

you know, as a leader, kind of explained as well, because I heard you do this on stage where empathy and sympathy kind of converge and buttheads as well.

Cy Wakeman 24:09

You're a good student empathy. So when people come to us, we want to greet them with empathy. So I tell people don't match other people's energy. Come in, if they're coming in hot and urgent, come in neutral kinds, caring, loving, greet them with empathy, not sympathy. And a lot of people don't know the difference. So a lot of people are greeting people with sympathy right now, which reinforces their victim mindset. So if someone comes to me upset, sympathy as I see you're struggling, that's where empathy starts. We both have our ICU struggling, but sympathy goes on to and I agree with the sense you're making of you're struggling that you are the innocent victim and that reality should not be this way. And I read A force that were the victims of other people in the sense, you made a bet and I colludes with you, and I leave you believing that you should escalate anything that is a time when reality is not preferred because you aren't capable, like I reinforced all that low level thinking, empathy. I see you're struggling. And I follow that with a call to greatness. I, I validate your current feelings. But I don't go on to validate the sense you're making up your experience that story. And instead, I asked you to question your thinking, What do you know for sure. And if you were great right now, what would great look like and I provide leaders a lot of ways that they can call people up out of that sense of empathy rather than sympathy. And sympathy is a lot about colluding, and a lot about reinforcing victim mindset. And a lot about blaming our stances or other people for our success or lack of success. And our circumstances aren't the reasons we aren't succeeding. They're the reality in which we must succeed. And a lot of folks are focused on what circumstances need to be different. And the reality is, it is what it is right now, we need to figure out given where we're at how we could move forward differently.

Kenneth Kinney 26:25

How does a reality based leader differ from what we typically think of the lessons we hear about leadership in general, and I know that's not only the name of your business, reality based leadership also, I know it's sort of a methodology and philosophy as well.

Cy Wakeman 26:44

So one, we help people see reality for what it is with 30, an outfit distortion that our ego brings to it. So most of the time, we see fact plus story. And our suffering comes from the story, our stress comes from the story pains in evitable disruption happens, but we help people see things for what they really are, and focus on what's relevant and not bring in all the irrelevant. So the first thing we ask people to do is dissolve problems before use of problems, because a lot of what you've added into the issue isn't reality. And then we ask modern leaders, if your reality base to help people see reality for what it really is, and then have them come at it with their best selves. And many people preach your leadership is motivating and inspiring another person. And it's not inspiring in spirit to the Latin word is to breathe, I can't breathe for you. It's not sustainable. You need to bring your own motivation, I can give the same talk. Some of those may be that some not same talk. So true leaders, help people diffuse their trauma, their emotional ways, by facilitating good mental processes. If the way we get rid of waste is a process, the way we get rid of emotional leads, is a mental process, leading contemplation and self reflection, using personal accountability. And so my family has moved through the world very differently. They greet people struggle with facilitating self reflection and question SMM to bypass the ego, and tap into all of their intelligence. The power of a modern leader isn't what you tell people to begin thinking about. Modern leaders don't manage people, they manage the energy of people away from IV cancer, how we could it's a very different set of competencies than we're normally teaching. Most teaching focuses on people coming in to complain about me, LD and the leaders job is to go change reality. And I just haven't seen that very effective. Our circumstances usually were only about 10% of our general wellbeing and contentment. 40% comes from the amount of accountability you take for your circumstances. So if I'm your leader, and you come in and you want me to change the world, I probably that's an even if I could only give us 10% happier, I would rather help you move into a place of accountability. And that will give you 40% And it's portable. It's something you can use in any circumstances, to move to the world more skillfully.

Kenneth Kinney 29:38

But I like how you talk about translation, how leaders need to help translate so a lot of times it's not even making that change. It's translating how to make that change. So bad analogy of it, but you know, you talk about ego a lot and you know, no ego was a big hit. Life is messy is a big hit. You're living the dream, if you will, sitting at the beach, you know, you've talked about this to use very humble person, how do you sort of keep your own ego in check, being a speaker recognized as a top influencer, having a New York Times bestseller that can make the head swell a little bit?

Cy Wakeman 30:13

It can, I don't even know if I tried to think about it that way to keep the ego in check. I try and have daily habits and dedications not really disciplines, and practices where I'm a daily meditator, I read lots of spiritual teachers, I love poetry, trying to stay in touch with and part of a greater whole, I am, you know, the the toaster, the appliance, not the electrical supply, I need to plug in. I think if we are in touch with our own grief and our own pain and our own feelings, it helps us see, no matter what your success, you still think about your parents, no matter how often I walk on stage, no matter what they pay me, I still have an insecurity. You know, what are people thinking? Or will they like what I'm going to present? I think if you stay in touch with your internal world, you will keep things in perspective. And I also know and I talked about this in the book, my gratitude practice, I used to practice being grateful for all the things I created. And I would just make a checklist. And it was almost telling the universe what I wanted more of like, what I want less. And I was interviewed one day, and they're like, how did you create such success? That was the question I want to ask me. How did you know to zig when other people say, and when I really looked at my success, so much of it had been enabled by others. I had librarians that when I didn't have books at home, let me take out higher than the limit of books to read. I had teachers at moments when my home life was really challenging, that I noticed and sucked in and invited me to participate in other things. I used to tally up my gratitude list with an eye towards what I created. And this host kept pushing that she's like, No, but what did you do. And I realized that I would have to rewrite history be revisionist history to say, I was such a smart six year old that I wouldn't have developed teacher. And I told them, I knew that tension. And that really kept me humble. Because if I can identify, but for the grace of God go by that all of these things landed on my table. Because I had access to something that not only keeps me humble, but informs where I can give next, I can give somebody else the same access that I was given. But I think a lot of people fooled themselves through ego into thinking that anything they had they played a bigger role in that than than what they really did. You know, I have food on my table. Because someone went out fishing today, I have appeared on this podcast, because someone gave me the opportunity to speak at NSA, and you were gracious enough to say, let me lend you up form and try and help people together. There just isn't anything I have done. There is a lot of things that when given the opportunity I showed up, maybe that's what I've done. I've showed up most of the time, and did my best. That's my contribution to the world. It's hard to brag about that. You do I did my best.

Kenneth Kinney 33:49

Yeah, it's amazing how far humility you can go. But unfortunately, the way that and it's it's a tough thing for a lot of leaders today to really think through is now with social media. It is currently Can

Cy Wakeman 34:00

I hear people all this? I'm sorry. I'm just gonna say

Kenneth Kinney 34:03

it's kind of turning the mirror away in seeing a different reality. And it's unfortunate because it's something that everybody will learn at some point. I just, you know, you don't want to sound like the old person yelling at kids to get out of your art, you know, with that kind of wisdom, but sometimes humility. You just wish people can learn a little humility a little faster, because it'll take it'll turn you into a much greater leader a lot more quickly.

Cy Wakeman 34:29

Well, and you know, the good news is is if you don't actively learn that life full bring it to you. So yeah, exactly. No, it's none of us get out of this life having aced the test. And yeah, that's, that's super tricky. I get concerned at times where I see the eagle getting bruised when we talk about privilege. And some people were like, Well, I haven't heard too. And I'm like, can we just call privilege that maybe you had fewer barriers and somebody else had it's not as scorekeeping. system but you know for me I just on a daily basis I kind of focus my gratitude on you what I have because of what others provided and that gets humbling very quickly.

Kenneth Kinney 35:19

Yeah, there was a Kristen Wiig character who on Sarah alive who she used to always try to one up everybody on being a little bit better or a little bit worse I feel like we're everybody's kind of stuck in trying to be a little bit worse and so you've got to feel more empathy for me because of that so is this of all my guests and I've been diving in Baja I love diving with sharks anywhere. I'm not I can't stand doing cage diving. And so Baja is a little more interesting because of the lack of clarity of the water compared to you know, the Caribbean but what is your favorite kind of shark and why?

Cy Wakeman 35:55

My gosh, so I know it's not a stark but we call it well. Shark it's a fish. It's the shark is a fish.

Kenneth Kinney 36:02

A whale shark is it really is.

Cy Wakeman 36:05

okay, because I was told they aren't sure. Okay, particularly Polly a shark. We live in the land of one a jock who sews diving expeditions and the well sharks are the most they're like huge...

Kenneth Kinney 36:18

Largest fish in the world.

Cy Wakeman 36:20

Okay, maybe that's their almost like cuddly and they're so gentle. And they'll just straight up and just let food come their way. And they're like meditative. I see them as like big meditative Buddhist monks swimming around in my backyard. And the reason I love them too, is that when they come it signals the time that all my kids and grandkids will come. Because that's what we do your leaves we go out and swim with the Welsh sharks. It's like our, our thing we do to just be glad we're here.

Kenneth Kinney 36:50

Well, if you talk about teaching humility, swimming with sharks on a regular basis, you tend to learn respect around the larger predatory sharks like great whites and tigers. Yeah. Well, sharks have an esophagus, about the size of a quarter. But their mouth is massive. And it's the largest fish in the world. Whereas a whale is largest mammal in the world. So that the whale sharks, though are absolutely beautiful, especially the ones you find with a little dots when you can really see them the maturity level, they're absolutely beautiful. So we'll say it's a special time in the show, where I ask everybody the five most interesting and important questions that they're going to be asked today. Are you ready? I'm ready. All right, number one, which is easier to adjust when you're training leaders, a young leader or an old leader?

Cy Wakeman 37:43

An injured leader. And what I mean by that is whether you're young or old, the point at which you your way didn't work is the timing you're most of open. I would say right now, young leaders are easier to train. And we just have to adjust our methods to collaborate with them rather than lecture to them.

Kenneth Kinney 38:06

Fair point. All right, number two, Mexico or the Midwest and you can pick either one Iowa, Nebraska call each other either one home but Mexico or the Midwest, I know Mexico is where you are today. But of the two?

Cy Wakeman 38:20

Mexico is my home. Absolutely. My homeless always for 30 years, my heart has been here every time I come here, I would just regularly it's where all the places I were that indicates me. They were not my home. A lot of my life, my heart was shattered and all it was telling me is not here. This isn't your home. And it just pushed me on. And I feel like I got pushed by the universe to the very perfect place for me, which is Mexico.

Kenneth Kinney 38:47

So are you a corn tortilla gal or a flour tortilla gal?

Cy Wakeman 38:52

Totally corn. Yeah.

Kenneth Kinney 38:53

All right. Number three. Which one is better? For Less drama in your life, social media, or cable news? As a drama researcher? Should be a good one.

Cy Wakeman 39:06

Yeah, social media because you can curate your own. You have a co creation there. Were when you turn when I turn on our own it. Cable News. I'm mad at everybody within minutes. I don't care what channel we're on. As a researcher I'm like this would not pass muster.

Kenneth Kinney 39:24

Well as a speaker when I travel. I do have a theory that if the Democrats are in office, you always turn it to CNN or MSNBC when you're on the road. If a Republicans in office, you turn it to Fox that way y ou're gonna have to deal with less stress when you watch.

Cy Wakeman 39:39

Oh, yeah.

Kenneth Kinney 39:42

Because they always paint a rosier picture? Yeah.

Cy Wakeman 39:43

Yeah, really? Interesting.

Kenneth Kinney 39:45

All right, number four, because I've heard you talk about both whales or dolphins?

Cy Wakeman 39:52

Oh whales. Absolutely. Well, I love the playful dolphins but I literally sit here in February where my eyes are and see, the whales come and they bring their babies up to you and they'll push them up by as friendlies. We don't know why they do this, but how they were raised. There are places where the whales, you they bring their babies up to show you in the boats. I've been five feet from Baby wells eyes that their mom is bringing them up to like show them

Kenneth Kinney 40:25

Dolphins aren't nearly as friendly as they get pegged. Yes, they're a lot meaner than people know. And

Cy Wakeman 40:31

they're aggressive.

Kenneth Kinney 40:32

They are aggressive. Alright, number five....

Cy Wakeman 40:34

I've also been hit well diving by a dump and like we just come up with, like slapped so

Kenneth Kinney 40:39

Oh, absolutely. No, there. Too many people watch flipper, and jaws and that's their opinion of dolphins and sharks. Alright, number five. And the most important question that you're going to be asked today. biscuits or cornbread?

Cy Wakeman 40:54

Oh, I'm such a biscuit girl. I grew up on sausage gravy and disgusts me that every Saturday for my kids. I'm total biscuit girl. I love these. You have to come time with me count up?

Kenneth Kinney 41:05

Absolutely. Well, as long as you got biscuits and gravy down there to do gravy is pretty much my last meal on Earth. I want biscuits and gravy. So

Cy Wakeman 41:17

you're gonna love mine. I make them really good.

Kenneth Kinney 41:19

Awesome. So where can people find out more about you keep up with what you're doing. Get a copy of the book and more.

Cy Wakeman 41:26

Absolutely. We love connecting with people on LinkedIn. It's Cy Wakeman. We also have a great newsletter. We try and be out on social the algorithms change a lot. reality based leadership.com forward slash newsletter sign up. We don't sell you stuff. We give you fabulous content that you can share with all the people you're leading. And then anywhere on social outside Wakeman, we're glad to have you. And my podcast is called the no ego podcast.

Kenneth Kinney 41:54

Awesome. Cy, thank you so very much for being with us today on A Shark’s Perspective.

Cy Wakeman 41:59

Thank you, Kenneth. It's such a wonderful invitation.

[music]

Kenneth Kinney 42:06

So there was my conversation with Cy Wakeman, a drama researcher and international leadership speaker named a top global leadership guru by Global Gurus, a consultant, a New York Times bestselling author, and the author of “Life's Messy, Live Happy: Things Don't Have to Be Perfect for You to Be Content.” Let's take a look at three key takeaways from a conversation with her.

Kenneth Kinney 42:27

First, think about the power of a place, not necessarily an exact address, but a place where you can go to get away from the drama. For many people, they don't have that place, even in their minds, because they're lost. But she went through a divorce and lost her nephew in a car accident. She wasn't looking for one to three Ocean Avenue. But she knew the place where she would want to find her renewal. Love it when she said I've come back to the water because my life is messy. And for a shark like me. You know, that's where I find my renewal every time I jump in the water and swim with sharks, the beach is my happy place too. If you could truly find that place of your own, wherever it is underwater on a mountain or just at home, find the moment where you're happy and let go enjoy the present of being present. And it feels like a baptism if you live in the present and can help you stay away from some of the drama. Home is where her heart is. I hope that you found your own home too.

Kenneth Kinney 43:19

Second, a lot of leaders were a facade loved her point of this in order to bypass the ego, evolve yourself and forge that wisdom. She said we can't love big if we haven't done our own work. And that is true. Life is messy. It isn't perfect. And my goodness, the last few years have been anything but perfect. They've been new for everyone. And when times are unprecedented, don't anoint yourself as a superhero. People need you to be a leader not look like one, dive deeper. Don't focus only on the packaging of you as a leader. As she said, the living is in the mess.

Kenneth Kinney 43:52

Third, 816 hours a year, people suffer needlessly from drama. That's what her research shows. That's tough. It's such a waste of fuel, if you will, for what fuels you. As she said, a lot of what you do fuels drama, and that hurts on so many levels. Less drama means you move through the world war productively and with more focus and with what's more important, or at least not letting the less important hold you back. Two and a half hours a day is too much. I personally don't think it's a coincidence. The time we spend each day with drama as she refers to it, on average is near to the time we spend on social media. But to her point, make sure to curate a good feed at least that helps you make it therapeutic if you will, as you curate a great community. And then whenever you can't put the phone down, turn off the apps and go to the beach even figuratively. Look out into nature. You can find a lot of peace looking outward to the world instead of always looking at your selfie on the phone. And a plus there's no filters needed at the beach or in the water. God gave us those free with nature.

Kenneth Kinney 44:54

Got a question? Send me an email to Kenneth at a sharks perspective.com

Kenneth Kinney 44:58

Thank you again for the pro privilege of your time and I'm thankful that you had the chance to listen.

Kenneth Kinney 45:03

There but for the grace of God go I. And amen to that. I hope that you'll join us on the next episode of A Shark’s Perspective.

(Music - shark theme)