****Please forgive any and all transcription errors as this was transcribed by Otter.ai.****

Bill Cates 0:00

Hi. I'm Bill Cates and you're listening to A Shark’s Perspective.

(Music - shark theme)

Kenneth Kinney 0:19

Welcome back and thank you for joining A Shark’s Perspective. I'm Kenneth Kinney, but friends call me Shark. I'm a keynote speaker, a strategist, a shark diver, host of this show, and your Chief Shark Officer.

Kenneth Kinney 0:31

Is your message relevant to your audience and the people that you're trying to sell to and serve? So often brands and people try only to focus on being unique, but not enough on being relevant to that audience. The question for your customer often becomes, are you right then right for me? Then ask yourself if your marketing message is cutting through the noise? And are you using radical relevance to win more ideal clients?

Kenneth Kinney 0:56

We've continuously been blessed with great topics and conversations and honored again to welcome another amazing guest today.

Kenneth Kinney 1:02

Bill Cates is a client acquisition expert, a Hall of Fame speaker, a CSP, an entrepreneur, the founder of the Cates Academy for Relationship Marketing, and the author of three best sellers on referrals as well as the author of “Radical Relevance: Sharpen Your Marketing Message, Cut Through the Noise, Win More Ideal Clients.”

Kenneth Kinney 1:20

And on this episode we'll discuss radical relevance, the 17 rules, knowing your target your market and your bullseye, the problems with casting a wider net that can diffuse your message, the double edged swords of technology, automation and content, moving away from the I, our and we, cognitive fluency, strategies and tactics, latent versus blatant, Maryland coastlines and those fresh crabs, Ravens versus the Orioles, things to do in Iceland, and a lot, lot more.

Kenneth Kinney 1:46

So let's tune into a radically relevant author speak with a radically relevant shark on this episode of A Shark’s Perspective.

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Kenneth Kinney 1:57

Bill, welcome to A Shark’s Perspective. Would you please give us a brief overview of your career and your background to date?

Bill Cates 2:03

Yeah, so in case anybody missed reading or misheard it's Bill Gates, oh, yeah, I've been making mistake myself, Bill Cates, not Bill Gates, he, I wake up every morning thinking I'm Bill Gates. What can I go by? Or what can I give away? Alright, Bill Cates. Here's the deal. Bill Gates has a lot of money, Bill Cates is meant to help you make more money. Gosh, I've been in the business. I've done a lot in my life, toured the country as a drum and drummer and rock and roll band years ago, started and sold to book publishing companies. And I got into this world of teaching, training, consulting and taking what I knew and sharing with other people. I've been doing that for 30 years. And I don't know I just love learning. I love sharing what I learned with other people in a way that they can use it. So I hope people find a lot of value from this program.

Kenneth Kinney 2:53

Well, in most of your publishing was books, magazines, newspapers, what? books

Bill Cates 2:58

books.

Kenneth Kinney 2:58

So how many books do you own today?

Bill Cates 3:01

Well, when I say published, I did I wrote one. And then it turned into a publishing company where I published 45 books from other people, so I wasn't the author. Yeah. And that's what I sold then I've done seven books since then. A few self published a few through McGraw Hill. So you know, my parents are rolling over in their ashes thinking that they're a little son, Billy Cates wrote books, you know? I'm sure of it.

Kenneth Kinney 3:29

Yeah. And that's why I still color in more than Well, let's talk about this book. You you, you know, we were talking about it before you came out with this right before, for COVID, which was the craziest time for people publishing books, but it's still radically relevant in the title of it's called Radical relevant, sharpen your marketing message, cut through the noise with more ideal clients. I enjoyed reading this a lot. But what was the impetus for the book? Tell me a little bit about it.

Bill Cates 3:55

Yeah, it's, you know, it's somebody asked me the question that we should always ask ourselves, or have people ask us when we're working on a new project, whether it's a product or service, or whatever it is. And the guy said to me, what problem do you solve? I said, Well, in this case, I'm people are having trouble getting in front of people, sales, marketing, they're having trouble getting in front of the right types of people that really fit their business. And so that's where we kind of shaped Ira had the idea of of more relevance. There's a lot of talk about what makes you different, and you got to get to know what makes you different. Well, yes, and no. First of all, it's hard to be unique and it's hard to be unique with one specific trait. Not that there aren't some people that do that. But what your prospect really wants is are you write for me? Are you relevant to me? You know, I don't care whether you drive a blue car, red car, yellow car, if you're flashy with this or that, but if You're right for me. That's all I really want to know. So that's what relevance is all about is making sure that the message is clear and right for the right person at the right time in the right way.

Kenneth Kinney 5:13

We talked early on about there being, you know, roughly 3000 touch points a day, and how do you take a brand then to jump into that mix to themselves be radically different to their audience with their own ads, their own content, their own social media?

Bill Cates 5:28

Yeah. So it boils down to really, truly knowing your market. And I'll say your target and then your bullseye. So and I know you understand these concepts. So the target could be so I work with a lot of financial advisors, I work with banks, other business consultants. And so a target market for an advisor could be there's one guy coached, it's Verizon employees, right. That's his target market. But that's not his bullseye. His Bullseye are people who are five to seven years away from retirement. Or Adam, who focuses on optometrists around the country, that's his target, but his Bullseye are optometrists that are going to be selling their business within five years. So very, very narrow. So the principle at hand here is, the narrower, the better. And the narrower, and then the narrower, the more relevant and therefore compelling and interesting and effective our messaging will be the mistake that a lot of people make as well, I don't want to leave these people out or these people out. And so they make the net a little bigger with how they talk about what they do, when they should be doing the exact opposite. Because it all it does is weaken the message. And yes, you can have more than one target. And yes, you can have more than one bullseye on a target. But it's all about getting narrower.

Kenneth Kinney 6:50

So you give us an example, if you will, of where somebody became radically different, either person or brand, and achieve some high level growth.

Bill Cates 6:59

Yeah, lots of good question. So, again, I'm going to come to you from my world of financial advisors, because that's where I have the most examples. So I'm gonna tell you about a guy named Tom McDonald out of Albany, New York. And so Todd wanted to work with construction. So he worked with contractors and construction. And but that wasn't so different. There was a lot of people that worked in with different kinds of construction, everything. And then he slowly over time, narrowed his focus narrows folks that who does he serve the best? Who does he like working with? Right? It's, you don't often hear the word joy when it comes to business. But when you find the right market, it actually can be very joyful. Because you're usually attracting the kind of folks who like you're passionate about sometimes similar things. And so he actually owned a, when he was in college, he owned driveway paving business. So he kind of knew a little bit about construction, although it was very limited residential stuff. So long story short, the difference that he's created as he focuses on family, family owned, closely held heavy construction companies. His clients build roads, they build runways, they build bridges, they build office buildings. What makes him different is his narrow focus. He's so narrow, there's virtually no one else in the country who does exactly what he does. So it's hard to be unique, but he's about as close as they come to being unique in his business. Usually, if you're thinking about what makes you different, what makes you unique, it's hard to be unique and was one thing I got to tell you shark eye over the last several years with COVID. And everything, I can't tell you how many value propositions I've looked at for various folks and various businesses. And they all pretty much say the same thing. And then every now and then I'll pull out a gem of something that's a little bit different. And then when you combine or two or three unique things, now you got something that makes you a little bit different. So it's usually a combination of two or three things that can create that uniqueness. And not one thing.

Kenneth Kinney 9:27

Well, I wanted to jump into a section of the book, I love the part where you talked about a double edged sword. The explosion of new technologies made it easier and less costly to reach people with your message, at least in theory, but since these tools are so easy to use, message bombardment is only increasing everywhere we look there's a message it says pay attention to me. So talk a little bit, if you will, does a little bit more about it in another paragraph, but talk a little bit about that double edged sword with that relevance.

Bill Cates 9:55

Well, yeah, I mean, so that's what's created this this This explosion, this volcano of information, right, we're everyone has the ability to do a blog, everyone has the ability to do a podcast, everyone has the ability to have a website, send out a bunch emails, everyone has the ability to do all of this. Now, some people do it better than others. Some people look like they're doing it well, but there's nothing behind it. But it's hard to distinguish how do you how do you know what's legit, and what isn't? And, you know, just in my business of being a consultant speaker, how do you become a consultant to speaker where you printed on your business card if you don't have a business card these days? Right? So so because so it's good that it's easy to get it out. But it's hard because everyone's getting it out. Right? So that's the jumble. So one of the messages, my other books before radical relevance, we're devoted to referrals and introductions and getting connected, right. So what's the easiest, fastest straightest line to relevance with a prospect who doesn't know you? Well, it's an introduction from someone they know and trust. And you leverage that borrowed trust, and that gets your foot in the door, and sometimes get you all the way in the door, depending on the level of trust in that relationship. So that's where the two messages come together. In this sea of, of message marketing, message overload, let's get introduced to people in better ways. And everything else becomes less important, I still got to talk about your value in a good way, you still got to earn your own trust. But at least we're gonna get our foot in the door at a higher level.

Kenneth Kinney 11:39

We you lay out early in the book, and then you laid out really well through the rest of the book, the 17 rules of radical relevance. We could talk about this for hours, but what are your top few rules that really, really stand out?

Bill Cates 11:51

Yeah, I'll give you a couple. So the first one we've covered which is the shortest line, straightest line, and relevance is an introduction. Number two is give your clients or customers a seat at the table. And what I mean by that is, generally speaking, you don't want to develop any marketing, messaging or make any strategic or even tactical, sometimes decisions in your business without consulting some of your clients or customers. You know, how you word things may be different than the words your clients or customers or prospects might be using. So you got to get that feedback, whether you have, you know, strategic retreats with some clients, or you have an advisory board, you just have a few folks who say, hey, what do you think of this? What do you think of that? I'll give you one example. I do this all the time. And one of my clients, Michael Schmidt's, out in San Mateo, California, I said to Michael, you know, tell me about how you perceive my business, and what makes me different, and what's the value I bring, and all that. So he said, this is Bill, when I tell other people about you, I tell them that Bill Cates makes asking for referrals as natural as breathing. And I think, Wow, that's pretty good. I never would have thought of saying that. And actually, if I said that it would sound like my marketing hype. But if I quote Michael Schmidt's, who actually said it, right, which is a testimonial, I like to call them testimonials, then now it becomes more real. And so I got that from from a client. And so give your customers see the table, I'll give you one more. And that is, go move away from the i Our and we messaging to the EU and the your messaging, you can't avoid saying I can't avoid saying, We and our from time to time. And if you look at most emails you send, you probably say I or we, we we, I do that sometimes I gotta just shift the the orientation of the sentence. So it doesn't look like III. And so this is about empathy. This is about having messaging that your prospects can see themselves in. This is about knowing them so well and talking about the problems and challenges and the opportunities and the aspirations. So it's in the right words and the right terms, that they see themselves in that. And once they see themselves and they say oh, this person gets me they understand me they have a sense of who I am, then they'll then they want to know more about you and they want to know your i and we and our statements, but not usually at the very beginning. Well, I have

Kenneth Kinney 14:33

a follow up to this, but I want to tell you about one more that really stood out for me and that was number 15. So radical rule of relevance number 15 Is your prospects and clients aren't mind reader's. It's a short chapter, but it's got a lot of punch, and it really touches on neuroscience, but elaborate, if you will, a little bit more about how we leverage neuroscience and marketing because I love the idea that people make things so complex that they forget that the brain needs some some powers. to process it, especially with the 3000 other messages, yeah, there's

Bill Cates 15:04

so much let me let me cover to two concepts that have very practical tactical implications. So first of all, the brain wants to conserve calories, the brain wants to conserve energy, it's how it keeps the organism alive, less energy spent. That's why during COVID, I put on the COVID-19, literally, right, my brain was conserving energy. And so what that means is that the brain is looking for simplicity, and clarity. And if your messaging is at all confusing, if it's complicated, if it's has jargon, if it's not well written and read easily, anything that will throw the brain off, the brain doesn't want to work so darn hard, and you'll lose people. Now someone's really, really interested, they'll filter through all the crap you've written, and still may reach out. But those are fewer and far between. and So clarity is is paramount in how you talk about what you do. And it's sometimes hard to be clear, when we're so close to things. And that's why we bring other people into the equation like clients perhaps, to do that. So that's one aspect of the brain. The other is up that's related to this. It's a concept called cognitive fluency. And here's what it does. And this goes to the clients aren't mind reader's, you want to give your clients or let your prospects I should say, know the path of doing business with you? What is the path to become a client or customer? What is the path to working with you? What does that look like? Lay it out, give it a name, give it the three step process, the five step process, whatever. Because if you don't do that, and they're not clear on the next steps, the brain automatically leaps to the conclusion that working with you is going to be complicated and confusing. And the brain doesn't like complicated and confusing. So lay it out when I work with folks. And I say, are you teaching your clients exactly what it looks like? Do they know the next step. And when they start doing that, it becomes easier to move people through the process, because they know what the whole picture looks like. And they know where they stand within the process. And it actually makes it easier to go to the next process because they kind of know what's coming anyway. So it's a much softer way to bring people through your process by just letting them know what it looks like.

Kenneth Kinney 17:31

Couldn't agree more. So let's talk a little bit further than about the concept of relevance. You make a distinction between strategic relevance and tactical relevance. Kind of elaborate your point there.

Bill Cates 17:43

Yeah, I see it as, and I know, a lot of people aren't quite sure the distinctions between strategies and tactics. And so strategies are bigger pictures, right, bigger picture stuff. Most people that I work with immediately say, I need to do this, I want to do this. People are looking for tactical answers when they haven't considered the full strategy yet. Alright. So strategic relevance are things like, what is your target market? Right? Or markets? What are some of the things that are going to make you look a little different or better? In the marketplace? What are the big benefits and things? So that's, it's the decisions you make. And then the tactical relevance is how you implement those decisions. So if you have a sense of how you benefit people, the problems you solve. That's the strategic side, you figure that out. Now, how do you talk about that? How do you describe that? And how do you get that message in front of people. So that's the tactical side of things. And you need both, obviously. And if you're working weak tactics, with a good strategy, you might get some results. But if you're working, good tactics, with a weak strategy, you'll get some results. But if you put the two together, that's where that's where it fits. If

Kenneth Kinney 19:02

we can get the thinkers and doers to be on the same wavelength. We can achieve so much in the world.

Bill Cates 19:07

Yeah.

Kenneth Kinney 19:08

Later on in the book, you talk about a model for determining the problems that we can solve for businesses elaborate a little bit further, if you will, on that model.

Bill Cates 19:17

Yeah, I love this model. I didn't invent it. I didn't make it up. The guy who I got it from probably didn't make it up initially. But the way he expressed it was quite good. So it's the last chapter book, in fact, and I got it from a guy named Michael Scott. He's a venture capitalist in New England. And he talks about the difference between latent or hidden problems, and blatant or known problems, right? If it's latent, we don't know we have it. Right. And if it's blatant we know we have and then on the other axis, it's aspirational versus critical. So if it's something we'd like to solve. Be nice someday to get that fixed. Get this get that. That's cool. But are we going to move heaven and earth to do that? Maybe not. But if it's a critical project for bleeding money, if you know it's costing us money, if there's a hard and fast deadline, then we will move heaven and earth to solve that problem. So the point of this is we want to try to position the business in a way, and it's not always easy, but it's in a position where you're in that quadrant where you're addressing problems that are blatant and critical. Meaning your prospects know they have the problem. And they've got to solve the problem. It's not aspirational. Now, again, not every business can be in that place. But sometimes you can help show someone a problem they didn't know they had. So he calls that, oh, God, I forgot the term office and missionary selling where you have to dig and show them there is a problem. And sometimes they think something is aspirational. Alright, maybe it really is. So if you get them wanting it bad enough, then maybe you can move them forward as well. But best place? Is it a critical problem? Do they know they have it, then they'll most likely take action? And hopefully, if you're the one who pointed it out to them, mostly like, like they take action with you.

Kenneth Kinney 21:21

Well Latent and Blatant were two of the reindeer that don't get used much. That's what I thought. I will tell you, that is not your last chapter, chapter 21, Pu tting it all together, which was last.

Bill Cates 21:33

Oh, I'm sorry.

Kenneth Kinney 21:33

Well, you know, say I read the book. So

Bill Cates 21:35

You did read the book. You read it more recently than I wrote it. So

Kenneth Kinney 21:39

I know. Some people when I remember that stuff, more recently than Do you remember the fourth paragraph on page 112? So Bill, I asked this of all my guests, and you're really close to the waters there in Maryland. But what is your favorite kind of shark? And why do you have a favorite kind of shark?

Bill Cates 22:00

My favorite kind of shark is is, is the Kenneth of the world because you're a nice shark. You'll circle around, and you'll get your prey but you do it in a very gentle. So yeah, you know, Maryland has more people know this, that more water coastline than any other state in United States. Because of the Chesapeake Bay and all the tributaries and the creeks and all that stuff. It's kind of like in Maryland, Annapolis. It's what Creek do live on. And so I you know, I don't really know much about sharks, although I did learn recently, that in most cases, they're not aggressive as they're portrayed to be.

Kenneth Kinney 22:43

Oh gosh no.

Bill Cates 22:44

They generally, you know, if they see a human, someone big, could be as big as them, depending on the type of shark, they'll just go the other way.

Kenneth Kinney 22:52

Well, even the large ones, we you have to be respectful when you're in their territory. But it's never been the way it's was portrayed in the movies. But yeah, in the in the Maryland waters, there's a few freshwater sharks that come into the tributaries. And so they're not seen very often, but they are seen and so it's, it's always....

Bill Cates 23:10

I understand there are some freshwater porpoises as well. And I didn't know about that. So and maybe brackish water even. So it's a little different. Yes,

Kenneth Kinney 23:21

yeah. Yeah, I wouldn't I wouldn't describe it either waters in Maryland as anything like the Caribbean. So

Bill Cates 23:25

No.

Kenneth Kinney 23:26

Well, Bill, it's a special time this show. Are you ready for the five most interesting and important and radical questions that you're going to be asked today?

Bill Cates 23:34

No, I'm not. I will participate anyway, because he wouldn't let me get ready. But But Lay it on me. I'll do my best.

Kenneth Kinney 23:42

All right, number one. Friends are coming into town, you're in Maryland. And let's say you're taking them over to Baltimore. Are you taking them to an Orioles game or a Ravens game?

Bill Cates 23:53

That's it. That's, you know, that's a good question. Probably a Ravens game, because the Ravens fans are just so rabid. And you know, I grew up a Washington. There I say at Redskins now commanders fan. And I had trouble getting into the Ravens but I went to a game and I loved it. The defense plays so dang hard. I love the Orioles too. Don't get me wrong, but Ravens

Kenneth Kinney 24:21

Well it'll take me 20 or 30 years to remember the Commander's name anyway, so.

Bill Cates 24:26

Well, I know. What's the shortcut for commanders?

Kenneth Kinney 24:29

I just remember that as my Cowboys would beat as often as possible, so

Bill Cates 24:35

Well, I know. Yeah.

Kenneth Kinney 24:38

And we would lose a few too. So number two. You just got back from Iceland.

Bill Cates 24:43

I did. Yes.

Kenneth Kinney 24:45

Glaciers or volcanoes.

Bill Cates 24:48

Oh, volcanoes. Volcanoes are dangerous and cool.

Kenneth Kinney 24:52

Absolutely beautiful.

Bill Cates 24:53

And when I say cool, not temperature. Cool.

Kenneth Kinney 24:56

Yeah

Bill Cates 24:56

Although I gotta tell you I went into an ice cave in a glacier. In Iceland, it was very needed just just how the water and the melting and the volcanic ash and all work. It cut this long tunnel of ice. And you can see all the layers of volcanic ash and different types of water. It was very, very, very cool. And there was a volcano spewing a bit as I was coming in from the airport to the hotel when I arrived. So,

Kenneth Kinney 25:25

Iceland is amazing. It's one of the few places in the world where it just draws a dangerous volcano draws in tourists nonstop. So

Bill Cates 25:32

Oh, yeah, the more eruption The more people just drop everything.

Kenneth Kinney 25:35

Like a concert.

Bill Cates 25:37

Oh, yeah.

Kenneth Kinney 25:37

All right, number three.

Bill Cates 25:39

All right.

Kenneth Kinney 25:40

Being different or being relevant.

Bill Cates 25:43

Oh, relevant. You know, if the difference is relevant. Cool.

Kenneth Kinney 25:49

Yeah, there you go.

Bill Cates 25:50

So one of the words one of the sorry, the rules of relevance is only differences that matter matter. Right, only if differences that are relevant, that have a clear benefit to the receiver of the message are relevant. So irrelevant. Relevance has always been the most important aspect of any type of sales or marketing. There is nothing more relevant than relevance because if the message isn't relevant, they'll it'll be ignored. And it's as simple as that. I mean, the first time anyone tried to sell anyone to something that anyone was, what's in it for them?

Kenneth Kinney 26:28

Great point. All right, number four. Friends again, coming over could be your personal preference. Crab cakes, or crab legs?

Bill Cates 26:38

Crab cakes, Maryland Blue Crabs. They're not the kind of crab legs that are people used to this no king crab. It's not Alaska, in the Maryland Blue crab, so nothing better than a blue good crab cake. But if you're not in Tidewater, Virginia or Maryland, if you're in North Carolina or anywhere else in the world, it says Maryland style crabcakes don't bother. Don't get it. Wait to come to Maryland and talk to me and we'll get some.

Kenneth Kinney 27:09

Yeah, exactly. It's like when they say Memphis style barbecue, and they're in Seattle is not no. All right, number five. And the most important question that you're going to be asked today is biscuits or cornbread?

Bill Cates 27:21

Cornbread. Because I grew up on corn bread from my dad, my dad was from Texas. He made not sweet corn bread. I kind of favor a little sweeter corn bread. But I'll tell you he used to take corn bread he'd make fresh....

Kenneth Kinney 27:35

Goes well with chili though?

Bill Cates 27:37

Well, yes.

Kenneth Kinney 27:38

Brisket?

Bill Cates 27:38

Here's here's what he did. This is gonna sound weird. He would crumble it up in milk and make like a cereal of corn bread and milk. And I'm telling you I used to love that I have fond memories of my dad and I sitting there eating corn bread and milk.

Kenneth Kinney 27:55

Well, Bill, where can people find out more about you your your radicalist your radical thoughts? Relevant irrelevant. But where can people find out more about you get a copy of the book and more?

Bill Cates 28:06

Yeah, I'll give you three things real quick. Radical relevance book.com Radical relevance. book.com is a little video there kind of see if it makes sense for you. referralcoach.com is my main website. referralcoach.com And then I have a guide that people can get that's free. Exponentialgrowthguide.com exponential growth guide.com It's free. have added send me your questions I'd love to help.

Kenneth Kinney 28:32

Perfect. I'll put all those new notes on my website and in the show notes as well. Bill, thank you again so much for being with us today on A Shark’s Perspective.

Bill Cates 28:40

Hey, Shark. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

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Kenneth Kinney 28:48

So there was my conversation with Bill Cates is a client acquisition expert, a Hall of Fame speaker, a CSP, an entrepreneur, the founder of The Cates Academy for Relationship Marketing, and the author of three bestsellers on referrals as well as the author of “Radical Relevance: Sharpen Your Marketing Message, Cut Through the Noise, Win More Ideal Clients.” Let's take a look at three key takeaways from a conversation with him.

Kenneth Kinney 29:11

First, great reminder on that it boils down to really truly knowing your target market and audience. What you feel may be relevant to that audience is only true if you've gone beyond and found your bullseye. As Bill said, the narrower the better. And the narrower, the more relevant and more interesting your message will be to them. Don't cast too wide a net and keep the nets away from the sharks by the way. Second, he says that the only difference that matters is what matters. And make sure you're different is relevant. True that it's hard to be unique. You can be unique in your market, but know that someone else will probably try to copy you. If you're successful. They'll try to copy that one thing. He reminds us that if you can combine two or three things a combo if you will, then it will help you become unique. I just spoke about this for one of my keynotes at a conference. And I pointed this out that regardless of whether or not it's your unique story, just be ready to resonate with your audience to articulate it, because you have to tell your story better than anyone else to be unique. Third, another one of my favorite parts of the conversation was the reminder of the power of cognitive fluency, which is one of my favorite behavioral science presentation points. Basically, cognitive fluency refers to the subjective experience of the ease or difficulty of completing a task. And with people considering you whether it's through the lens of your storytelling, your UX design your sales process, or other help them see and follow a simple path to convert. I've yet to understand why we add friction that doesn't need to be there. Keep it simple shark I think that's the KISS method anyway.

Kenneth Kinney 30:46

Got a question? Send me an email to Kenneth at a sharks perspective.com.

Kenneth Kinney 30:50

Thank you again for the privilege of your time, and I'm so thankful to everyone who listens.

Kenneth Kinney 30:55

Be radically relevant today. Not for you, but for them. And join us on the next episode of A Shark’s Perspective.

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