****Please forgive any and all transcription errors as this was transcribed by Otter.ai.****

(Music - shark theme)

Kenneth Kinney 0:16

Hello and welcome back to A Shark’s Perspective.

Kenneth Kinney 0:19

Selfishly, one of my favorite parts of my own journey and career is speaking, other than being a lot of fun in some aspects, serving an audience in community is such an honor to me in speaking is an excellent way to make a significant income as well. As long as you're following a proper system. It's easier said than done for many. But if you do this marathon right, then there really is no limit.

Kenneth Kinney 0:38

Grant Baldwin is the CEO of The Speaker Lab, a speaker, podcast host, and the author of “The Successful Speaker: Five Steps for Booking Gigs, Getting Paid, and Building Your Platform."

Kenneth Kinney 0:48

And on this episode, we'll discuss inside tips to get gigs consistently needing a book or an agency to be a speaker and get paid how to measure your value fixing problems finding your niche stand up comics demo reels, Nashville, Zig Ziglar, Gary Vee, and a lot, lot more.

Kenneth Kinney 1:03

So let's tune in to a successful speaker with a successful shark who speaks on this episode of A Shark’s Perspective.

[intro music]

Kenneth Kinney 1:16

Grant, thank you so much for joining us today on a sharp perspective. So if you could tell us what your background your career date, your speaking journey is so far.

Grant Baldwin 1:23

Yeah. So the nutshell is, I used to be a youth pastor. So I went to Bible college and then got a lot of opportunities to speak in that format, and really enjoyed it. Parts of it. In terms of the role parts, what I liked, parts of it didn't like, but the thing I really enjoyed the thing I really came back to, I wanted to do more with speaking. So I felt like I was decent at it. Want to do more of it, no idea what to do from there. So after that, I met a couple guys who were full time speakers. And it's just sort of trying to learn about the business and figure out how to book gigs and who hire speakers, what do you speak on? And how much do you charge and just that whole world. So for the next couple years, just built up a career as a full time speaker. So it's doing usually anywhere from 6070 gigs a year all over primarily the US and loved it is a lot of fun and got to a point where I had a lot of people who were asking me how to become a speaker and some who were interested in doing it full time. And some who were interested in saying, hey, you know, I'd love to just a couple times a year. But I don't know how to find gigs and all those same questions I had when I got started. So we started doing some teaching and training around that. And that's what evolved into what we do today, which I run a company called the speaker lab where we teach and train speakers how to find a book gig. So yeah, so all the ins and outs of the speaking world is what we're a part of now

Kenneth Kinney 2:36

So to get 6070 gigs a year, you were either overcame a deadly illness, you're a war hero, or a pro football star, right?

Grant Baldwin 2:43

None of the above. And that's why I think that we teach a lot with speakers is that people assume that you have to have these prerequisites in order to be able to book gigs, like you mentioned, you have to, you know, climb Mount Everest, or you have to overcome cancer, you have this like crazy obstacle that you've overcome or story that you can share. And yeah, there's certainly like a place for those in the speaking marketplace. But that's not the case for the most people like I'm a like, I'm a white dude from the comes from the Midwest, like a normal middle class family. So there's like, there's nothing on paper that qualifies me to be a speaker in the traditional sense that a lot of people think, but I think at the same time, that's also made the work that we do very relatable, because people realize, okay, if that guy can do it, that and he has no special skills or special qualifications, that people think that you need, then I can probably figure it out, too. So yeah, you don't need those things in order to be a speaker.

Kenneth Kinney 3:33

So you have a new book, The successful speaker, what was the impetus for that? I've heard you talk about this a few times, on your own shows whether or not somebody needs a book to continue to be a speaker or not. Or, you know, what do you what was the impetus for writing the book? And where do you see it helping your own career?

Grant Baldwin 3:48

Yeah, so, so that I had written that when I was doing a lot of speaking, I was doing a lot of speaking in the education space, we're working a lot with high schools, colleges, parents, teachers, those in the education space. And so I actually self published a book several years ago for students that did really well. I wrote every single word of it. So from like, a bucket list perspective of like, alright, I wrote a book, check that box, I'm good. I don't, I don't necessarily enjoy writing, I enjoy, I enjoy speaking I enjoy, you know, doing interviews doing podcast stuff, for our own show for stuff like this. And it's, that's the, that's kind of the medium I gravitate towards is audio and speaking versus writing. And so I know that, like I see the value of a book and I know what how it can help in different ways. And so a couple years ago, I had a friend who approached me about the possibility of doing a book for speakers. So we talked about what that could look like kind of went back and forth on it. And and that kind of evolved into what the project is today. So the book is the successful speaker five steps for booking gigs, getting paid and building your platform. And basically, we want to take everything that we've learned in the speaking business and consolidate it down. into a book. And so for, for me the point of the book is, there will be people who may never listen to our podcast and who may never come across our site. And who are, may stick to like a truce a traditional form of media like a book. And so they're going to come across the book and find it in a bookstore or order online or hear about it from you know, the show or elsewhere, and who may never again come across our stuff. But this is a good way to introduce them to some of the other things that we do at how we help speaker so we have not held anything back in the book, we've tried to put everything we possibly could in there. So it is basically a handbook and a guide for speakers at any level to be able to book gig. So yeah, really, really excited about the book.

Kenneth Kinney 5:44

Well, so if you had to take a guess, why do you think we're seeing such a jump in the field of speaking, if you will, you're inspired now to write a book, you see a lot of podcasts on methods. I mean, speaking, obviously, has been around forever. But I think maybe some of it's the bubble I'm in in my own life with speaking in a lot of conferences, it just seems like 99% of the LinkedIn photos I see today as well have somebody with a microphone in their hand on a stage. And everybody is just jumping into wanting to be a speaker, maybe not everybody, but there's, there's a lot of people who want to be speakers, because I've got something to say.

Grant Baldwin 6:15

Yeah, I mean, in this day and age, like people still recognize speakers as being authorities and being experts and having a certain level of recognition and prestige. So that's why that's why people use a lot of those pictures is because there is a it's like the same thing. If, you know, if if you meet someone for the first time and ask what they do. And they say, I'm you know, I'm a I'm a brain surgeon, or I'm a rocket scientist, or, you know, there's a certain level like, oh, wow, that's legit. You know, so someone's saying, like, Oh, I'm a speaker, you know, like, wow, that's has a certain amount of cachet that comes along with that, so to speak. So I think there's certainly that part of it. And then I think for a lot of people who are interested in speaking, like speaking is also it for many people, it can be terrifying. And for a lot of people, though, in addition to the terrifying it's just, it's fun, it's a fun way to help an audience. It's a fun way to connect with people. It's one way there's something you know, unique and special about being on stage in front of an audience and sharing an idea or a thought or a concept or principle and seeing like those light bulb moments of helping people get it and be able to apply it to their business or to their life. So yeah, there's certainly certainly something special about being a speaker.

Kenneth Kinney 7:18

Real quick, before we dive into some of the mechanics, who is your favorite speaker of all time that you've seen?

Grant Baldwin 7:24

Great question. So there's a lot of speakers I've seen. And they're all they all are different in different ways, you know, so, Jon Acuff is a phenomenal speaker, and a good friend. Years ago, I saw Colin Powell speak. And he was, he was the or the former Secretary of Defense, or Secretary of State and something like that. And saw him speak as somebody is very serious, right. Yeah. But a few things that he said. were hilarious and really, really, like really well crafted. You know, what I what I really enjoy is I really like comedians, because I think comedians are great storytellers. I think they're great speakers. They they do something very similar to what we do as speakers and just a different context, stand on stage for, you know, an hour or whatever, and deliver some type of presentation. And their job is the same as to keep an audience engaged and to take them on some type of journey. So there's a lot of comedians I watch and resonate with. But yeah, Acuff is definitely one of the better speakers that I've seen very funny, very polished, takes the craft very, very seriously. And does does a great job from stage.

Kenneth Kinney 8:37

Do you ever see Ziggler?

Grant Baldwin 8:39

I did, actually. In fact.

Kenneth Kinney 8:44

I don't remember how many years ago it's been since I've seen it. Yeah. 20 years ago, it's probably been dead. Yeah. So

Grant Baldwin 8:49

it was when when I saw him, when I saw him, he his house was definitely in rough shape. And his memory was was was fading. So his daughter was on stage with him. And even though you know, so of course, like one thing I remember is that he would, he would speak and like start to say, a line or story or something. And then a few minutes later, he'd start the same thing over and say the same liner, the same story. So his daughter's there to kind of like, you know, steer him back on course and record, but he he played it off really, really well. You know, he, he, he was it was kind of in a stadium type setting where it was in the round. And so he immediately was telling his daughter, well, like, you know, I got to tell this side of the room because they didn't hear me the first time, you know, zig line, you know that. It was great. So it was it was, it was it was cool, nonetheless, to see him.

Kenneth Kinney 9:38

Yeah, he's one of the best speakers I've ever seen. Well, I tell people all the time I've done it a few times on this podcast, I'm clearly admit that I was a failed stand up comic 100 years ago in my youth, but I have such a great respect for people who are able to deliver those kinds of stories and still make people laugh if a couple of times I got laughed, but it would depend on how many drinks they had. You know how watered down the whiskey was As for the kind of bar but

Grant Baldwin 10:01

doing stand up comedy, especially like, like an open mic type setting, yeah, brutal, very, very difficult.

Kenneth Kinney 10:07

There's very few times as a speaker, you get heckled, but every time you're a comedian, you do the right how late it is. So a lot of my own focus in marketing, especially has been on fixing problems. And that's a lot of what I talked about. I know, you talked about a lot with narrowing down. So walk us through how someone should go about that as a speaker, how do they narrow down a particular problem to solve?

Grant Baldwin 10:31

Yeah, so one of the most important things that any speaker can do in terms of just the early steps of getting started, is what we teach back basically, in the book is this friend, this speaker framework, SPE, AK makes the acronym. And so S is select a problem to solve. So get really, really clear on who you speak to, and what's the problem that you solve for that specific audience. So I think for for a lot of people, we just enjoy speaking we want to do more speaking. But we, we we want to speak to as many people as possible on any type of topic, right? So if we were to ask you, you know, who do you Who do you speak to I, you know, I speak to humans, I speak to people, I speak to everyone, you know, and if I, if I were to ask you, you know, what do you speak on and people say, Well, what do you want me to speak on, I can speak on anything I can speak on, you know, leadership, or change, or customer service, or faith or marriage, or, like all these different topics. And like, it's no different than any other restaurant where like, if you try to speak on all those things, if you try to solve all those problems, you're gonna be mediocre at best of all of them. So one of the things that we you've probably heard us say, is that we want speakers to be the steakhouse, and not the buffet, be the steakhouse and not the buffet. And what we mean by that is that you don't try to be all things to all people, you know. So if you and I were gonna go to lunch, and we were going to, we're looking for a really good steak, we have an option, like we could go to a buffet where steak is one of 100 different things that they offer, they're all all the items on that buffet are mediocre at best. Or we could go to a steak house. But that's all they do. Like they don't do tacos, they don't do lasagna, they don't do pizza, they don't do any of these other things. They do one thing, and they're the best at it, right? So that's what you want to be positioned as, as the speakers, I saw this one specific problem for this one specific audience. And as counterintuitive as it seems, the more clear you are on that the more specific you are actually, the easier it is to actually book gigs. Versus I'm trying to appeal to anybody and everybody, right? So it's kind of like, you know, if being a generalist versus a specialist, a specialist is actually easier to book gigs versus a generalist who like, yeah, I guess I could speak on something like that, like, that's not really reassuring for a potential event planner, or decision maker, who is considering hiring you as a speaker. So the first thing you have to do is again, get really, really clear and really focused on what that problem is that you're solving. And remember that you are in the problem solving business, right? So it's more than just, I overcame cancer. And so I want to tell people about that. Okay, the honest truth is, is that nobody cares. Nobody cares. Like, that's great that you conquered cancer, that's great that you overcame that obstacle, that's great that you survived the whatever. But people want to know, how does that apply to me? How did that's great, if that happened to you, but I want to know what's in it for me. So always think through that. And remember that as a speaker, you are in the problem solving business. So if your presentation, your talk, doesn't help that audience solve a specific problem, then you're definitely not going to get hired. Well, then,

Kenneth Kinney 13:17

do you think the pullback from a lot of speakers is they're just too afraid of being labeled with one specific problem? Because I know a lot of people in a lot of senior roles, for example, they may have had experience in five different things. And they don't want to make it up a number. They don't want to go down strictly one because they're afraid they're gonna get stuck in that one forever.

Grant Baldwin 13:37

Yep, no, absolutely. Again, let's go back to the restaurant analogy. It's no different there that a lot of chefs could cook a lot of different cuisines. And so they're probably nervous, like, well, I can cook more than steak, you know, I do a really mean lasagna. And I'm really good with tacos. And if you take the steak and you put it, I can turn it into a burger. And I can do all these different variations, right? So it's no different there. So again, we think that the more things that we try to offer, the more opportunities that we'll have. And the reality is, is the opposite is true. The more specific, the more narrow, the more clear, the more focused we are, the easier it is to find those opportunities because like, you know, Kenneth, if we were talking a little bit earlier, that that you live in Memphis, I live in the Nashville area. And so if you came to town, you're like, Man, I'm looking for, I'm looking for some really good tacos, what do you got? I'm not gonna send you to a buffet, I'm gonna, there's a couple of my favorite taco places, and they don't do anything else, you know. So if you're looking for barbecue, if you're looking for hot chicken, or if you're looking for whatever else, like that's not what they do. But if you're looking for tacos, like these are the places that you need to go to. And again, it it actually again, makes it easier to find those is because you're solving something for a specific person rather than trying to be everything for everyone.

Kenneth Kinney 14:49

Well, you have narrowed down where I'm gonna go to lunch today. If that helps you. Good. That's good. But I want that buffet jello that comes with it. So

Grant Baldwin 14:57

isn't that putting?

Kenneth Kinney 14:58

Absolutely So walk us through how you about narrowing down in industry, I mean, I know you do a lot of motivational speaking. But how do you narrow down that industry? I think most speakers, they're not giving the same motivational speech to a youth group and the metal fabricators in northern Ohio. I mean, you're probably good. But that's also a sort of a niche down view of where you start pointing your speech towards an industry.

Grant Baldwin 15:21

Yeah, so within industry, there are seven primary industries that we talked about in the book. So those are corporations, associations, government, military, nonprofits, faith based, and churches, education, which is like K through 12. And then colleges and universities. Now within that there's a lot of subsets of potential audiences that you could speak to, what you don't want to do is say, I speak to corporations, but I also speak to churches, but I also speak to elementary schools, right? That's where it becomes a very watered down and you're trying to do all things for all people, that doesn't work. So again, being very clear on here's a very specific audience that I speak to now, how do you figure out what that audience is? A lot of it can come from your own background, like where what's the world that you came from? What's the world that you already know that you understand? So for example, for me, as a former youth pastor, I got my start speaking to just I was already working with students. So it was a natural transition for me to continue speaking to students in a different context, right, versus saying, you know, I want to go speak to CEOs. I'm like, I, you know, I, at the time, wasn't a CEO never been, I didn't have that experience. You know, there's a, a, a guy in one of our programs I was working with recently, and he was trying to figure out who he should be speaking to. He was later in his career. And I said, let's talk about your experience. What have you been doing? He's like, I've been a realtor for 30 years. And I've been the president of the like, the Colorado Realtors Association or something like that, like, let's start there. Like, that's a world you already know right now. Right? The challenge again, for a lot of speakers, though, is we think like, whatever you choose in terms of an audience, or a problem that you're gonna solve, we feel like it's a permanent decision. And it's not, it's a starting point, right? So. So when I got my start speaking to students, that's where I started. And then over time, like, then I started speaking to a little bit to parents and teachers. And then I started speaking to more corporations in association. And then it's like, it kind of evolved over time. Versus I'm going to pick this one audience and this one topic. And that's the only thing I can do forever and ever and ever, like that, that I don't necessarily think is accurate. If written on some speakers certainly do that. Some speakers find their audience, they find a problem. And that's what they stick with forever. So know that you can evolve that you can change over time. But don't try to don't try to do all things for all people from the beginning.

Kenneth Kinney 17:34

So you also just talked about something that spurred another interest, it's the audience say, you know, help explain, if you will, what types of events, if someone's trying to get paid to speak, they may think they're gonna get some big paycheck from massive conference.com versus a trade association, which actually pays the bills?

Grant Baldwin 17:54

Yeah, I mean, there are, there are a lot of opportunities that exist for for speakers. So I think oftentimes, like to your point to their candidate, we think like, Okay, I'm gonna look for big national conferences, or big national corporations, or these big national associations and these types of events. The reality is, is that a lot of them, if they do pay speakers, they may have a massive budget, and they're not looking for, let's say, an up and coming speaker.

Kenneth Kinney 18:16

Yeah. So were there two or three keynotes? That's it.

Grant Baldwin 18:20

Yeah. And they may be paying, you know, they may be paying each of those, you know, 30,000 50,000 $100,000, they're not paying that for a brand new up and coming speaker. Now, at the same time, where a kind of a more up and coming speaker fits in, is there a lot of of, you know, local, state regional level events, conferences, trade shows, they're looking for a speaker, and they don't have $100,000 budget to work with, they have $2,000, or three $5,000. Right. Now, that doesn't mean like a male we have is $2,000. So we just know that we're going to get a crappy speaker. Like that's not the case, there are plenty of really high quality, you know, 2000 3000 $5,000 speakers. And so there's a lot of opportunities that exist there in the marketplace for those type of speakers who provide a great value for an event. They are not, you know, a 10 $30,000 speaker, but they are a solid speaker, who can still do a great job at a lower fee. So there's absolutely a lot of those in any type of industry that exist.

Kenneth Kinney 19:18

So there are a lot of people who are just trying to get their names out there their startups like you were just talking about, there are a lot of people that are entrepreneurs behind startups that want to get out there and speak. How do you actually start figuring out if you have a topic that somebody is willing to pay a fee to have you speak? Yeah, great

Grant Baldwin 19:35

question. So there's definitely an overlap there between what you want to speak about what you're passionate about what you're interested, and what organizations and groups are actually hiring speakers to talk about. Just because you're passionate about it, just because you care about it, just because you think everyone else should care about it. Just because you think the world should know about this topic doesn't mean that organizations or groups are actually hiring speakers to talk about it. So there has to be that overlap there. So a couple things that you can do just some practical exercises is one you can look For other speakers who are doing something similar to what you want to do, right, just do a quick Google search. If you said I want to talk, I want to speak about how to how to how to do like underwater basket weaving. That's great. Let's do a quick Google search and find some other speakers who are doing it. If you can't find any, that should be a red flag, like the lights on your dashboard should be going up. Don't think or don't assume that, oh, nobody's doing this, I'm going to be the first, there is typically a reason why no one is doing that. So you want to look for speakers that are already doing it. Because if you see like, hey, I can find several other speakers that are doing this, that's awesome, it generally proves that there is a market for that, that there are other speakers that are already doing this. And this is a topic that organizations and groups are used to hiring speakers to talk about. So that's one thing to do. Another thing is that you could look for the type of events that would hire you. So let's go back to the underwater basket weaving for a second, go on Google and just do a search for underwater basket weaving Association, underwater basket weaving conference, underwater basket weaving group, you know, and you're starting to look for, are there any, like natural gatherings around this topic that you could potentially speak to their audience. Another thing you could do is you could go to Speaker bureaus, websites, Speaker bureaus have 1000s of speakers listed sometimes. And a lot of them, you can browse, and you can sort by different topic categories. And so what you may do is you may just go there, and they may have a list of 50 different topics there that you could browse through the type the types of speakers there, as you can kind of sort of sort through and figure out which, which category would your topic naturally fit in? If you're like, I can't find one, I'm going to create my own category again, like that's not a good idea. And I wouldn't, I wouldn't recommend that you're looking for, again, for some natural things where your topic would fit in to just show that there is a market that exists for this.

Kenneth Kinney 21:44

So I've heard you asked several famous speakers this I'm curious on your personal opinion, are you pro speaker bureaus, or anti speaker bureaus? Or maybe not anti? But are you less of a proponent of it than some people?

Grant Baldwin 21:57

Yeah, I'm a very much less of a proponent. I'm a fan of bureaus bureaus are fine. I think they what I don't like about bureaus, and this isn't a bureau problem. I think this is a an industry issue, that for a lot of newer speakers who are kind of up and coming. Their perception is I just I just How do I get in with the Bureau, I just get with the Bureau, then, man, I'm set, you know, and I get it, like I had the same perception. When I got started. I've just like, if I just get with the Bureau, if I can just find an agency, if I can just find someone who's going to book me or represent me, I'm good, I'm off to the races. And it just doesn't work like that. Like, if you if you can't book gigs yourself, a bureau is not going to be interested in booking you. It's not like, like, sometimes we get confused on supply and demand when it comes to a bureau. So it's not like a bureau has like, wow, we have all of these extra gigs lying around. Don't have any speakers. If only we had speakers, like it just does not work like that. So realize, again, you're like, No, for me, just to get in my own personal experience. I've done hundreds and hundreds of paid speaking gigs. And I'd say probably less than 10, maybe 15 of those have come from bureaus. So if I get a bureau gig, if the bureau called me today and said, Hey, are you are you available on the site, that's awesome, that's great. But I'm not banking on it, and I'm not building my business on it. So the same thing is true for you. Like you just you can't, you can't just sit back and hope that a bureau is gonna take care of things for you. So that's the thing I don't like, again, that's not necessarily a bureau fault there. I think that's just kind of like a way a lot of people outside people like would would perceive bureaus to be so in addition, like, just because you get listed on a bureau site doesn't mean anything, like I'm listed on a whole bunch of Bureau sites that never booked me. And it's, it's fine. You know, so if you think of like, I'm back here in Nashville, there's a major speaker's bureau here locally and become good friends with with several of the agents there with the president there. And they've told me like, hey, we have probably 1000 speakers on our roster, 1000 speakers on our website, and they probably like consistently book less than 100 of those, right. And so, again, think about like, think about it, like, again, like a menu at a restaurant. A menu can have 1000 things on there, but the probably really only selling about 20 of those things, you know, 20 3050 like they're not going to be selling all 1000 equally. Because the other thing to remember is that bureaus make their money based on a percentage of what a speaker earns. And so if they have the option to sell a $20,000 speaker or sell a $5,000 speaker, they're going to make significantly more on the $20,000 speaker because they're going to get a percentage of that versus a $5,000 speaker so So just realize like again, heroes are fine they have done I don't know that they've necessarily done anything wrong to perpetuate Sure. But the the misconception for a lot of speakers that I just get with a bureau like I'm sad, like it just doesn't work like that.

Kenneth Kinney 24:51

Well any other mistakes that you can think of that new speakers make when getting started.

Grant Baldwin 24:56

I think going back to what we talked about earlier that they're just they're just trying to speak to anyone and everyone instead of being really, really clear and really focus, that's the biggest thing that I see is that we just think like I just, but there's so many things I can speak on, there's so many topics that I'm interested in. There's so many audiences that I have experience with and like, you can make a case for that all day long. But the reality is like, that just doesn't work. And then you can think of also like, there's several examples of people who started with one very small niche thing and expanded from there. So for example, let's take someone like a Gary Vee Gary Vaynerchuk is a very well known, you know, expert and business personality and speaker and author. And Gary today speaks on a variety of different topics. But Gary got his start in social media and business, talking about one very specific topic that he was passionate about, you know what it is?

Kenneth Kinney 25:47

The Jets. Part of it, why why, yeah, why family wine business? Yeah,

Grant Baldwin 25:53

yeah. So he was like, He's passionate, like, I'm talking about wine. That's it. That's all I'm gonna do. Now I'm starting to gain a little traction. Now I'm gonna talk a little bit about social media. Now, I'm

Kenneth Kinney 26:01

gonna talk a little bit about branding expert on LinkedIn, ya know, he

Grant Baldwin 26:04

can do a bunch of different things. But he starts with wine. You know, I'll give you another example. Take the example of Nike, when Nike got their start. If people haven't read it, go read Shoe Dog by Phil Knight, the founder of Nike, it's very fascinating story. The number of times that Nike was on the brink of disaster is absurd. It's just crazy. But Nike got there. Like today, Nike sells all types of sporting goods and apparel and everything under the sun. Nike puts their logo on. But they got their start spelling selling a very specific running shoe for a very specific type of runner, like collegiate runner, not for all runners, not for basketball players, not for baseball players, not for football, not for just an everyday walking shoe. They sold one very specific shoe for one very specific type of athlete. And then from there, then it expanded a little bit more over time to what it is today. But they didn't say from the beginning, like, Okay, we're gonna sell everything for everyone. We're gonna do basketballs and baseballs and golf club, and then shirts and shoes and hats. We're gonna do everything I know, we're gonna sell shoes for this very specific type of college runner. Like that's a very specific, and then we're going to expand over time. So you can expand over time. But again, you have to start narrow, you have to start focus and expand from there.

Kenneth Kinney 27:18

riches are in the niches. So what's the biggest mistake you made as a speaker?

Grant Baldwin 27:25

Good question. Good question. I think the other thing that I think is not necessarily a mistake, but I think for any speaker, is just to have like, a long term perspective on the business, like sometimes I think speakers assume, okay, I'm, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna be a speaker, you know, and Friday afternoon, I decide to be a speaker. And on Monday, I'm like, why don't I have a gig? Yeah, you know, and it just like, it takes time. So it took me took me a couple years to go from zero gigs to being able to do it full time. And it's true, again, with with any type of business, like it's, it just requires work. It requires effort discipline to stick with it, you know, so if you're just kind of like, Oh, I'm just gonna experience kind of cool, I think I'd be interested in doing that. Like, you're probably not gonna make it, you know. But if you're like, No, like, I love this, I'm passionate about I'm going to do this, we're going to figure out how to do it. And you can absolutely do it. It just requires work. It requires effort.

Kenneth Kinney 28:12

Well, and then previous guests have been on your show, she's been on mine as well, Melanie D. So we have this conversation about, you know, people that really work on the craft, you can tell the difference. There are a lot of people who just run up on stage, and then there are actually people who it's a profession, it's not just a side hustle. Yeah.

Grant Baldwin 28:28

100% Yeah. So if you and that's one of the nice things about speaking is there's not necessarily like a right or wrong way to do it. Yeah. Meaning that you both in the in the business model, but also in the presentation, you know, meaning that, you know, there's nothing that says you have to do 50 gigs a year, or 100 gigs a year, in order to be a professional speaker for you, you may decide, like I don't have the bandwidth to do you know, that may I'd love to do five or 10. And I'm just trying to get how to get those five or 10 That's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. And the same way from like, the presentation standpoint, there's nothing that says like, you have to do an intro and then three points. And then a conclusion. Like, that's a Model A lot of people use, we don't have to do it that way, you know, so there's just there's a lot of ways to go about doing it, there's not necessarily like a right or wrong way that everyone has to do it this way.

Kenneth Kinney 29:15

So you do videos on YouTube, critiquing other speakers and how they present first of all, I'd like that you'd swear on this podcast who never critique one of mine because I'm a hot mess on stage. I warn everybody that I have ADD when I get up there so that they get their phones ready in case somebody else scrolling off off the stage but what are some of the tips or tactics that you help people become better speakers?

Grant Baldwin 29:38

Yeah, I think a couple things speakers can do one of the best things you can do that you know we don't really get into on the on a video or it's hard to hard to see sometimes is the preparation and the work that you don't see. And so the you kind of touched on this and alluded to it but the best speakers on the on the planet, they they don't just get up and like I'm gonna write a couple thoughts down on a napkin and then just kind of wing it and see what happens. Like it just doesn't work like that. And the same thing is true with comedians. like you understand this, that there is there's so much work that goes on behind the scenes for them to practice and think through and rehearse and write down the notes and try material and craft sentences and words, and I'm gonna use this word instead of that word for a very specific reason. And there's just a lot that goes into it. So a lot of speakers deal with, you know, with nerves and anxiety and feel like, oh, man, the audience is going to eat me alive here. And this is this is so scary and terrifying. So a couple of thoughts on that one would be the, the audience is on your side, like we've all seen speakers, and I want nothing more than for the speaker to be good. I don't want you to suck, I don't want you to be bad. Because if I'm gonna sit there and listen to it, I want it to be interesting. I want it to be fascinating, entertaining, engaging. So we want you to be good. And the best way that you can be good is to practice and do the work that nobody sees. The other thing I would say for speakers is to use stories. Stories are extremely memorable. They're very, like if I said right now I can if I want to tell a quick story, immediately, you're probably drawn in you have no idea where the story is going. Is this going to be funny? Is this going to be sad? Is this going to be boring? Is this going to be sappy, interesting, inspirational, motivational, depressed, I have no idea where the story's going. But I love stories. And that's just true. That's a natural human reaction is that humans love stories. So I think for a lot of speakers, the best thing you can do is use more stories in your in your presentation,

Kenneth Kinney 31:18

I always warn people so that they don't get nervous and scared to network with two or three people prior to their presentation. So that when they get locked, you know, they get up on stage, they can kind of have a familiar face that they've had a pleasant conversation with. And that helps you a flight a lot of it because I think people look at 100 people in an audience and just freak out. But if you find three, that are friendlies, it makes a lot of that transition better to your point

Grant Baldwin 31:43

there, in terms of like interacting with an audience ahead of time I do that a lot. Standing at a doors, people are coming into a session or going around just kind of like even giving a high five or a fist bump, or shaking hands or any of that stuff, because one it, it familiarizes you with the audience, but that also familiarizes them. It's a difference between like sitting in an audience and seeing someone on stage and you're like, I don't know who this person is. And hopefully they're good speaker versus like, I met this person beforehand, I talked to them for 30 seconds, they seem nice, I'm gonna be a little bit more in tune with what they're talking about, I'm gonna be a little bit more engaged. So yeah, that that kind of like warming up the audience in terms of like, the one on one interaction you have before you speak can definitely help with some of that confidence,

Kenneth Kinney 32:22

it'll likely get you better reviews as well, I think the other thing that I was going to talk about, too, is you do need to watch yourself on video, as painful as it is, I always you know, I do and I just cringe at watching it because because I can look like I'm all over the place. But the the other is, I think that it's hard for a lot of people who are tactic driven in their presentations, to understand how to wrap around telling a story with tactics. So if you're, for example, if you're talking about tactics for growth, it's somehow sometimes very hard for speakers to wrap up that kind of conversation. So a lot of people will be more entertained by better stories, but are they necessarily going to learn when they're hearing other types of speakers give tactic presentations, and that's always been a little bit of a difficult transition for people.

Grant Baldwin 33:07

Yeah, and stories are also like when it comes to like tactics and strategies, you can talk about, like case studies and examples of like, here's, you know, such and such, or a company that implemented this. And here's the results. They saw ours, here's how they implemented this, or here's this, you know, theoretical idea, but here's how this look, you know, in the trenches of what, how does it actually play out, you can share all those stories. The other thing too, is that you'll notice stories are very memorable. So if you if you get up in front of an audience and say, I'm going to give you here that the 10 best tactics and strategies for accomplishing XYZ in your marketing, like, most people aren't gonna remember those 10 They're not going to remember two of them, right? If you share a story, like those stories are what they're going to remember days, weeks, months later. So I noticed this all the time. My my wife and I, we have three daughters. And my oldest daughter goes to our church's youth group. And there's a lot of times I'll go pick her up from youth group. She just came out of church, she just left us. I just picked her up and asked her what did the youth pastor talk about? And she was like, Ah, I think he talked about this or that. Oh, let me tell you the story he told and she can tell the story spot on. Like you just heard him so I think again, like it's so true for so many, again, audience members, you know, yourself and I included that like I can think of I can't remember all the points I can't remember all the all the all the the tactical in the trenches, stuff that they're talking about. But I remember story. I remember an example. I remember a case study, I remember those things. But it also helps me to then connect the dots. Oh, yeah, that helps me to remember what they were talking

Kenneth Kinney 34:34

when you talked about this on a previous episode I listened to not that long ago about Seth Godin who's brilliant at taking whatever it is and wrapping a story around it. And he does a an amazing job of that. So what marketing assets then other than starting with reaching out to the speaker lab, of course, but what marketing assets do people need to have in place when they start down that path of speaking careers that website demo reel, you know, day one, where do you start to get them on that path?

Grant Baldwin 35:00

Yeah, those are the two big ones that you really need a website and a video. Because if you don't like in this day and age, like if you don't have a website, you don't exist, it's hard for people to take you seriously, you definitely need to have a website, one of the unique things about being a speaker is that you are the product, you are the brand, right. So it's not like you're selling some type of third party widget or tool or gadget or gizmo like people are buying you. So because of that, I actually recommend that you use your name as the domain. So for me, like if someone's interested in hiring grant as a speaker, I send them to grant baldwin.com. And that's the that's where they're going to find the information about about my speaking. So I recommend you definitely got to have a website. Second thing that you got to have is you got to have a demo video. So think of a demo video, like a movie trailer. before most people would go see a movie, they want to see a trailer, they don't need to see the whole thing. They don't even want to read a synopsis, I need to see the trailer. Because that they take a 90 minute movie, they boil it down to two or three minutes. And you have a good idea of what's it about who's in it, what's the plot, what's the theme, all that stuff that just gives you enough to figure out if this is something you're interested in the point of a movie trailer, the point of a demo video is to make people want to see more, make people want to see more. So it's exactly what you're trying to do with a demo video is for a potential client who watches it like wow, that was really good. I need to learn more about the speaker, this is what we are looking for. That speaker is interesting, or they're funny, or they're engaging or their their story was passionate was was passionate. Whatever, like that's what you need to show. And people need to see that rather than you just describing yourself. Well, I'm a nice speaker, I'm a good guy. I'm a funny speaker. I'm an engaging speaker. Like you can use all the adjectives you want to describe yourself, but people still want to see you speak, to determine if you're a fit for their event. So those are definitely the two marketing tools. The two marketing assets that you need is a website and a demo video.

Kenneth Kinney 36:40

Do you ever run into you personally, because you've got a successful podcast about speaking Do you run into a problem much where people know you as the speaker lab a lot more than you trying to point him to, to a grant Baldwin domain?

Grant Baldwin 36:53

Yeah, so actually, we have two different sites, basically, depending on what people are looking for. So if someone says, Hey, I want to hire grant as a speaker, then we send them to grant baldwin.com. Whereas if someone says I'm interested in becoming a speaker, which is much more the case, where people are familiar with us, as we send people to the speaker lab, and that's very intentional, like I in fact, when we first started creating some resources and tools for speakers, it was kind of all under the grant Baldwin name or brand. And I wanted to get away from that there's like there's pros and cons with having a business under a personal brand. I wanted the speaker love to be more than just grant. And I know that a lot of people are familiar with us because of me, because of my story. I know that, you know, I'm the voice on the podcast or the face on the videos or for webinars, I recognize like I'm the face of a lot of what we do. We have a great team behind the scenes that helps do a lot of the training and coaching with speakers as well. So it's more than just just me. So yes, I think it's important for any, any entrepreneur to really think through, you know, building a personal brand versus building something that's not dependent on their personal brand.

Kenneth Kinney 37:59

So there are a ton of experts out there who's speaking at conferences, I've known a lot of them that for years have been speaking just to get their name out there. They spoken for free. But is it a bad thing for people to speak for free? And if they are speaking for free? What should they expect or slash, you know, demand from that?

Grant Baldwin 38:15

Yeah, there's definitely a misconception about speaking for free that speaking for free is like always a negative thing, or it's always a bad thing. What I would say is that speaking for free, is okay, as long as you know why you're doing it, as long as there's a reason a valid reason that makes sense for you know, so what I'm saying is, don't just I just love speaking, I just want to speak for free all the time. Like, that's a great way to run out of business, you know, in the same way that if you're, if you run a bakery, and like I just love, I love baking cupcakes, and I just want to give everyone my cupcakes like it doesn't take long before he like you can't afford to make any more cupcakes and give them away. So you're providing value in the form of a speech, you need to make sure that you are compensated with value. Now that value may or may not always come in the form of a check. So I give you some examples of when it might make sense to speak for free. So for example, one of the best ways to get better as a speaker is that you speak that you practice, right. So there may be some opportunities for you early on where you're like, I just need to get better, I just need to get on stage, I need to get some reps and and so I'm looking for just some some free things that I could speak out. Now typically, that's going to be something more local or regional, something that's not going to require massive amounts of time or travel time or expense for you. I'm a lot more likely to do something like that. There's a couple of friends conferences I've spoken out locally that are 20 minutes away, versus Hey, can you fly halfway across the country and be gone for a couple days to speak for free, probably not likely interested in doing something like that. So just the opportunity to speak is a when another opportunity where maybe it makes sense to speak for free is if you have some type of product or service that you offer on the back end, whether that's a book or coaching or consulting. I'll give an example. There's a client that we worked with, and he speaks speaks for free but has a life coaching business that he offers on the back end. His life coaching business does over $300,000 in revenue, but the whole thing is built upon Speaking for free. So on paper, you're looking like, oh man, you do all these gigs free, that doesn't make sense or lose money. It's like actually the whole business is multiple six figure business is built on speaking for free selling books or offering some type of again, coaching or, or training or course or whatever it may be just some type of lead gen for other things that you offer may make sense for you with speaking. And in many cases, you can actually make more from lead gen for other parts of the business than you could for whatever they would an event might actually pay you. Another reason may be if you're wanting to attend a conference anyway. So if there's some type of like, especially in the marketing space, there's several conferences that may not pay speakers, but by being a speaker, you're able to kind of rub shoulders and network and connect with other speakers who may be there. There's also a certain level of like we talked about earlier, like recognition and prestige that may go along with being a speaker at that event. So all that to say, there's a lot of reasons that may make sense for you to speak for free. And I don't like necessarily the black and white approach of you speak for free, you're not a real speaker, or it doesn't count or you're not a professional, like there's a lot of reasons to speak for free. But again, you just need to make sure you're doing it, you're receiving some type of value in turn. And in exchange for the value that you're bringing to the table.

Kenneth Kinney 41:12

Well, there's an SEO value if you play it, right. And there's a video value if they record it, that a lot of people that way you don't have to pay for, for somebody to do videography, but I know another that a lot of people and I think I may have had this same conversation with Melanie about his, you got to remember that conferences are not in the business of promoting you. So figure out what it is you can take advantage of. If you're going to speak for them to help build their brand. You've got to get something out of it to help build yours, you know, to go to the next level. But you know, I heard another guy that you had on your show Josh Linkner, who I think is fairly well known. But he was great about being transparent about his own, you know, his own business. And he's not necessarily what you think of as a household name. But he talks about innovation. And he charges like something like 35 grand a keynote, and he spoke 160 plus times a year had a four plus million dollar speaking business. How does somebody start going Now granted, not everybody's gonna go to a $4 million speaking business or a $300,000? Life Coach business, but how does somebody transition from, I'm sure you get a lot of people who've gotten their feet wet with speaking for free. And now they need to figure out how to make that a sustainable, you know, lifestyle and career where they can get paid and pay for the bills. How did they go from that transition? How do you sort of position them to do that?

Grant Baldwin 42:30

Yeah, so one thing to recognize and realize is, again, someone like Josh or other examples, who are, you know, 2030 $40,000 keynote speakers? Again, that's not an overnight transition, you know. So ultimately, part of what you're thinking through is, is figuring out how much you should be charging as a speaker. I'm speaking for free, I'm doing a few free things here and there. Now, how much do I charge and there's a couple of variables and factors that may go into that one is going to be your industry and markets, you can charge more in some industries versus others, you can charge more speaking to corporations than you can to nonprofits, you can charge more speaking to colleges, and you could to elementary schools, it doesn't necessarily mean and I do not recommend that you say okay, which industry charges the most, Which one can I make the most go after that, like, that doesn't work. So industry is definitely gonna be a factor, your experience level is going to be a factor as well, Josh did not start charging 35,000 The first day he started speaking, right, he's done hundreds, probably 1000s of presentations at this point, to the point that he is very, very good. He's extremely polished whenever he gets on stage. So recognize that as well. That your experience, if you're brand new speaker, you typically won't be able to charge as much as someone who's been doing this for, you know, several years. And then the third piece is going to be your marketing materials. When an event is considering hiring a speaker, oftentimes, they're looking at multiple speakers. And so your material needs to look on par with other speakers at your level. So if you're charging, let's say $10,000, as a speaker, your website, your demo video, your marketing materials, they need to look on par with other $10,000 speakers. Because whether we like it or not, like people still judge books by Yeah, yeah. So people, if people look at your, your website, your video, and it just like, just doesn't look good. People are gonna assume like you're not a good speaker may or may not be true may not be fair may not be accurate, but that's what people assume. So again, you want to make sure that your stuff looks quality, it looks polished, it looks represents you well. And so then also, like we talked about earlier, it's just kind of the long term perspective on it, of knowing like, Okay, if I want to go from zero gigs to 50 gigs, that starts by going from zero to one. And if I want to go from $0 to $20,000, as a keynote, that starts by charging something, right, so that may be like your, my very first paid gig, they paid me $1,000 I've done several gigs, that early in my career that were for $500 for a couple 100 bucks, you know, maybe just for travel expenses. All of that, like built the momentum that led me to the point where I've been able to charge you know, 1000s and 1000s of dollars to speak but that's not again, an overnight thing. So have that long term perspective there. And even when it comes to fees, like people ask a lot of times like hey, alright, what should I be? recharging in my situation. Actually, I have a free tool people can play around with it. Which I don't know if you have you fiddled with this.

Kenneth Kinney 45:07

I started it in then you know, what I was gonna ask you about was with that tool where somebody can figure out what they're speaking fee is. Yeah, what's it's not? It's on the speaker lab, but it's a different website. What's the website? Yeah,

Grant Baldwin 45:19

my speaker fi.com, my speaker fi.com that helps

Kenneth Kinney 45:23

you figure out the basics of what your Fi is. But how does that backstory, if you are a war hero, or you know, overcoming illness, or those other things that take you to go from, say, $2,500 a speech or making up a number to 3500? Or five grand? How do you sort of figure that out that back end piece for what it's worth?

Grant Baldwin 45:42

Yeah, so. So basically, the calculator is totally free calculator, you go there, you answer, like six or seven quick questions, takes you less than a minute about the about the event, how much bigger you've done, what's the industry, some of the different variables that may go into an event, and then it tells you a number of what you you could potentially charge for that. Now, what I would say is, it's much more of an art than a science. So agree, there's no, there's no magic formula that, you know, if you have, if you're, you're a war veteran, then you get to charge $1,000 more, or if you have, if you've conquered cancer, you could add 10% to your right, like, there, there's nothing that like that allows for that, or that that those calculated in that way. So definitely use it as a guide. Yeah, like, you know, as gospel is like, the end all be all. So I think for some speakers, there's just like, I have zero clue to where to even begin, where do I need to? Where do I need to start? So I would start with that as just to get a free tool there that they get you they'll get you go and get you in the ballpark?

Kenneth Kinney 46:37

For people that want to be speakers? What's the biggest thing that you generally see that prevents them from becoming speakers? Is it you know, fear of being labeled as an imposter? Is it fear of being on stage? Is it lack of being able to make a decision? What are the things you see for people who think they want to make this transition but are not sure. And that may have just been the question?

Grant Baldwin 46:58

Yeah, I think for a lot of them, they just don't do the work. And so it's like, honestly, like, I think that it's very simply that because one things we say all the time is that speaking and finding and booking gigs, a lot of what we teach is simple, but it's not easy. It's simple, but it's not easy. So it's kind of like you know, if you wanted to lose if you want to lose 10 pounds, right? What do you need to do? It's really simple. You need to pay to Georgie, you need to exercise. I am no health expert. But I know those are the two things that you got to do. Right? So paid enjoy. Exercise, simple, but it is not easy. So the things that we can talk about in terms of how do you how do you find them book gigs, it's simple, but it's not easy. And it just comes comes down to actually doing the work. And so the speakers that I know that have been successful are those that have said, I'm not just kicking the tires on speaking, I'm not just kind of like vaguely interested in I did this once and like yeah, I wouldn't mind doing it a second time. It's like no, no, I'm like, I'm all in on this, I'm very now on all in meaning like No, doesn't necessarily mean a certain number of gigs. Rather, like I'm just I'm passionate about speaking I want to make speaking part of my business. And again, this is true with anything. You said, like I'm you know, I'm going to be, you know, the king or queen of LinkedIn. But I'm just gonna like I kind of log into LinkedIn from time to time and I just kind of like, put it in my bio, but that's about the extent of it. But I'm not like in the weeds of this, then don't expect to be positioned in that way. Don't expect the same type of results. So those are all everything that again, that we are teaching about speaking is simple, but it's not necessarily easy.

Kenneth Kinney 48:26

Well, great. And you also have to have other than just a passion for speaking you have to have a passion for knowing that the people in the audience they want to learn and be entertained. There's not a cattle call for people that come up it just want to hear you go half Asad through a speech. I mean, it's has to be you have to have a healthy level of respect for the audience for what, what they're going to get out of that as well. But grant, you're in the Nash Vegas area. So you know, in Middle Tennessee, unless you're seeing the San Jose Sharks face the predators, you're not seeing a lot of sharks, but you're on A Shark's Perspective podcast. So I have to ask, what is your favorite kind of shark and why? And you know, there's several different ones you can I know you got three kids as well. So there's, you're probably gonna lean a little bit to Baby shark as well. But what's your favorite kind of shark and why?

Grant Baldwin 49:12

That's a unique question. Yes. Favorite kind of shark?

Kenneth Kinney 49:15

I'm known for a few questions.

Grant Baldwin 49:18

Okay, that's all right. That's good. That's good. Keep me on my toes here. I guess Okay, well, here's here's what I'm Is this

Kenneth Kinney 49:29

anything acceptable answer and I'll tell you another one of my favorite sharks, not just the ones in the water, but Daymond John speak at a conference.

Grant Baldwin 49:38

Okay. All right. There you go. I what I would like to do sometimes is go swimming with like those whale sharks out there. I've heard about this like in it's an I think a Mexico or something like that. We were we've been to Mexico several times. And I think it's kind of a seasonal thing that you can just go swimming with these gentle giants. I think that'd be pretty good. So you

Kenneth Kinney 50:00

go to the Atlanta aquarium, it's not that far from me. They've got three, I think, three and do it in a probably more enclosed environment. So well, Grant, it's that special time in my show. Are you ready for the five most interesting important questions you're gonna be asked today? Ready? Not far away. All right, number one, if you had to choose one confidence monitor with a timer, or PowerPoint slides, confidence monitor with a timer, for sure could not agree more. I just had the experience where they had a confidence monitor without the timer. And the guy in the back that was doing the audio stood up, he held up two hands, which is the universal symbol for 10 minutes. It turns out, he was talking to the guy next to him and I didn't know that. And so I blaze through slides, thinking that I was in a hurry. And then I told talk to him about it afterwards. And he was like, oh, sorry, I was just talking to the guy next to me. I'm like, come on. So number two, famous speaker question. Tony Robbins or Scott's Retin

Grant Baldwin 50:54

A I'll go Scott Stratton. Just because I've met him before anything I do at Austin.

Kenneth Kinney 50:58

It's a really good episode you have as well so number three again in Nashville question. Redneck royalty since you live in the heart of country music. Garth Brooks or Keith Urban.

Grant Baldwin 51:08

I'll go Garth, because I've seen him in concert. And he was very good.

Kenneth Kinney 51:12

I bet number four lavalier or handheld mic.

Grant Baldwin 51:16

I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go option C and go a countryman which is over the year, comes out in front of your face. So I'd prefer that I go that option one handheld option two lavalier. Option three, the Lavalier can be very hit and miss. And it's hard to control when it bumps into variables, though. Yeah, so I control I prefer the country man that's on your face. Option two would be the handheld

Kenneth Kinney 51:39

number five and the most important question you will be asked today is biscuits or cornbread.

Grant Baldwin 51:47

I'm gonna go, boy, I'm gonna go cornbread. This is a question that stumps people. Yeah, as long as there's a little sweetness to it. I go corn bread. But man, you can't go wrong with either

Kenneth Kinney 51:58

No, no, you go to a Cracker Barrel and you're part of the country or mine, then you have you can get both good. Yeah. So great. Where can people find out more about you follow your thoughts, grab a copy of the book, listen to the podcast, and more.

Grant Baldwin 52:10

Yeah, everything that we do is over at the speaker lab.com. The podcast is called the speaker lab. So wherever you're listening to this podcast, or to a quick search in your app there for that show, the speaker lab, the book is again, the successful speaker, you can find all the information about it over at the speaker lab.com/book The speaker lab.com/book Depending on when you're listening to this, if you preorder. There's several different bonuses that go into it as well. So you can find out again all about that over at this big lab.com/book

Kenneth Kinney 52:37

Grant, thanks so much for being with us today on A Shark’s Perspective. And in your own words, you're awesome.

[music]

Grant Baldwin 52:42

Thanks again, I appreciate it.

Kenneth Kinney 52:49

So there was my conversation with Grant Baldwin, the CEO of the speaker lab, a speaker, podcast host, and the author of “The Successful Speaker: Five Steps for Booking Gigs, Getting Paid, and Building Your Platform."  Let's take a look at three key takeaways from a conversation with him.

Kenneth Kinney 53:03

First, the business of speaking is great and the gates are open for those who want to speak. However, as fun as it is, it's tough to and it's a long term game. And there are a lot of people out there who have failed at this as a business. There's a lot to the sausage making process and speaking and I've learned so much over the years about this, it's given me a chance to really appreciate the knowledge that people like Grant are sharing. So if you're interested in this for an income, then check out his book, speaking is awesome. But the speaking businesses work as well make certainly learn to balance the knowledge of that.

Kenneth Kinney 53:33

Second, let's talk about storytelling. His point about comedians and speakers is spot on. I used to like 100 years ago, do some stand up. And as I learned more about the craft, I was always amazed at how much it opened my mind to better storytelling. A lot of people fail to incorporate enough stories in there, depending on how much data and how much you speak about tactics. Use stories when you can case studies are good as well to incorporate data better storytelling is a challenge for a lot of speakers. But there's a reason the point is it just a half hour to an hour speech. You've got to give the audience something to wrap their brains around when you speak in stories helped do that.

Kenneth Kinney 54:08

Third, one of my favorite areas of conversation on the show it on the others is about fixing problems. The need to do this as the same for speaker as it is for business, we need to focus that way. As he said, When you position yourself and your speaking business. Don't try to be all things to all people. I've done this and will admit some guilt here too. But as I so often do on the show, I truly recommend you find your niche, the clearer and more specific that you are, the easier it is to book gigs as opposed to only being a generalist. His recommendation is to really get clear and really focused. People want to know how your solution applies to them. He said and I quote, we think that the more things we have to offer, the more opportunities that we'll have. And the reality is the opposite is true. Great point. He reminded us of something that I've always wondered why people feared you're not necessarily locked in any one topic. You can't evolve into something else. If you want, I speak on a variety of topics. The reason I say this is, even for an event planner to consider you, they often need a simple view of the problem you solve for them. Don't make it too complex.

Kenneth Kinney 55:11

So if you want to hire me as a speaker, if you've got a question, then send me an email to Kenneth at a shark's perspective.com.

Kenneth Kinney 55:17

Thank you again for the privilege of your time.

Kenneth Kinney 55:19

As our guest said earlier, I'll challenge you to do the same. Go be the steakhouse and not the buffet. I'm short so either it's good for me, even though I can honestly stay in need a few more kale salads. So join us on the next episode of A Shark’s Perspective.

(Music - shark theme)