Transcription
****Please forgive any and all transcription errors as this was transcribed by Otter.ai.****

[intro music]
Shark 0:16
Welcome back and thank you for joining A Shark's Perspective. I am Kenneth "Shark" Kinney, your host and Chief Shark Officer. Shark 0:22
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And now back to the show. Shark 1:14
Do consumers want your calls? For brands and especially marketers from those brands, it can be easy to not understand a very complex minefield with how we should call or not call consumers. Just out of respecting data and consent is one part but respecting the legal guardrails is another, especially for those of us who live in the performance marketing space. For a lot of brands. The waters are murky and unfamiliar with calling consumers the right in legal way. Shark 1:41
Michele Shuster is a founding partner of Mac Murray and Shuster, where she advises clients on proactively managing federal and state consumer protection demands. She's the regulatory counsel to lead counsel, as well as the general counsel to PACEm the professional association for customer engagement. Shark 1:58
And on this episode, we'll discuss TCPA, consumer protection and do not call, states picking up where federal regulations may leave off, ATDS and random sequential dialing, footnote seven, stir shaken, call limits and the debt collection rule, enhanced caller IDs, the traceback group diving in the Adriatic, bearcats, white tips and a lot lot more. Shark 2:20
So let's tune into a leading TCPA attorney and a shark who only observes best practices whenever he calls on this episode of A Shark's Perspective. Shark 2:33
Michele, thank you so much for joining us today on A Shark's Perspective. I got a chance to meet you at a conference in through our mutual friends with LeadsCouncil and especially all the folks in the performance marketing world. I know about your background, but tell us a little bit about yourself your background your career to date. Michele Shuster 2:48
Sure, sure. So I'm a founding partner of my law firm McMurray and Schuster. We're located in Columbus, Ohio, we have a staff of about 25. We're primarily in the marketing and advertising space. And a large percentage of my work is in the telemarketing space. I was the consumer protection chief of the Ohio Attorney General's office for a number of years. And then after leaving the agency's office, went to work for big law firms and took that knowledge I learned about enforcing regulations to help companies defend themselves against lawsuits and also to assist them with compliance so they don't end up in lawsuits to begin with. I'm currently general counsel for pace, the professional association for customer engagement, which is the trade association that represents contact centers, and all phases of contacting consumers. And I'm also Regulatory Council for leads counsel. Yeah, that's Shark 3:48
a lot of hats. So the thing that I really wanted to cover a lot today was where we are with the state of the state with all the regulations. Where are we today with current regulations as they stand over the course of 2021. We've obviously seen the Facebook ruling and how that got narrowly defined by the Supreme Court. But now we're starting to see a lot of things change with state laws. For example, California and Florida, Florida just passed an act which went into effect in July of 21. Arizona starting to do some things, you've got one Supreme Court ruling, and then you've got 50 different regulations. how narrow or broad should we think about this from a state perspective? Michele Shuster 4:32
Well, so, you know, states have had regulations similar to the TCPA for a very long time. And when the federal agencies the Federal Trade Commission and the Federal Communications Commission started passing, or implementing, I should say do not call regulations, the state's followed suit. So you know, I can tell you having headed or led the consumer protection section for a state during the time Do not call laws were passed, the states and the federal agencies work very closely together. So as we see a deterioration and maybe in the breadth of what the TCPA covers, we are certainly going to see states pick up that slack. And we're already starting to see that you've mentioned a few of those states, California probably being the most significant, which changed its telemarketing regulations back in July, effective July 1, what we're seeing that's common in the States is they're more broadly defining the type of equipment that can be used that would implicate the statute. So you mentioned Facebook had limited the scope of the Telephone Consumer Protection Act, or the TCPA is definition of a dialer to one that is actually using a random or sequential number generator to store or to call telephone numbers. Well, the states are not taking that, you know, that narrow approach. Florida, for instance, is looking at systems that automatically dial telephone numbers or choose no telephone numbers for dialing. So you know, that's not something that we've looked at previously, we don't have any case law. And so we definitely don't want our clients, we don't want your listeners to be the test cases in Florida. So it's a very important point in time to stop look and see what type of calls you're making. Find qualified professionals who understand this industry, and then make sure you have a defendable position. Because if God forbid, you are brought into one of these lawsuits, you're gonna want to make sure that you're able to get out of them quickly. So yeah, the landscape is definitely changing, we're gonna see a lot more focus on states, we are going into murky and unfamiliar waters as, as the shark would know. And so it's just really important that you that you're prepared, and that you know, what dangers to look for, as your marketing and making calls. Shark 7:08
Who are the types of brands that are typically getting themselves into this kind of trouble frequently? Michele Shuster 7:13
Well, of course, I don't represent bad actors. Shark 7:16
Only only the best, Michele Shuster 7:18
maybe got some bad advice in the past from from different counsel or, or folks that, you know, just had trouble. You know, getting through all of the details of all of the regulations that apply when you're marketing direct to consumers, you know, there are so many regulations to consider to consider, we've got all the do not call provisions that we've talked about, we've got regulations that dictate the mode and medium that you can use to contact consumers without consent, you have privacy regulations. Now, depending upon whether you're texting or making telephone calls, there are various, you know, requirements and best practices, especially in the texting space. So, you know, it's not that they're bad actors. It's bad. But this is a very confusing area of the law. Not all of the regulations that are imposed on business make sense. And a lot of them don't even have a definitive term associated with compliance. You know, the ATS definition Under the TCPA is a great example of that. And even with a Supreme Court ruling on what the definition of an ATS is, as a result of a footnote seven, which we can certainly talk about, there's still some, you know, there's still some confusion and intelligent people can argue, and they are right now plaintiffs in defense counsel about what that means. So I wouldn't say that it's bad actors. You know, the folks in the space that are problematic that aren't following the laws don't have much concern, and we don't see him in court, because you can't get to them are the folks and generally these are overseas, they're using pre recorded messages to initiate contact with consumers in the United States. And they're causing a tremendous amount of problem. Because you know, if calls are being placed to consumers that they don't want to receive. And if these are spam calls, robo calls, whatever you want to call them, then that's making consumers not pick up their phone at all if they don't recognize a phone number. So those are the ones that are extremely problematic. You know, consumers do what to receive calls that they've that they expect, that they requested, and those those kinds of bad actors will make it difficult for the rest of the rest of the community. Shark 9:43
Well, I've only got the smartest and brightest listeners on the planet, but define what an ATT s is in the modern era. Michele Shuster 9:50
Yeah, yeah. So just a, just a backup here a little bit. So the TCPA was originally passed in the mid 19. It is and it was passed because we had really smart telemarketers that had figured out how to produce dialing systems that they could literally just start with dialing and sequential numbers with all zeros, ending with all nines. And in doing so they would tie up literally every phone in a hospital or a police station, or IBM or whoever that had purchased blocks of sequential phone numbers. Or they were just, you know, dialing from a phone book randomly. There was no consent involved. They weren't targeted, targeted leads or consumer requests to place telephone calls. And so the TCPA was passed in order to or the regulations were passed in order to specifically address that. And so, you know, basically, an automatic telephone dialing system is a system that uses a random or sequential number generator to either store or produce those numbers that are created and then calls them. I'm Facebook, which, as general counsel for pace we were involved in submitted an amicus brief that specifically addressed the issue of storing and producing telephone numbers that had been randomly or sequentially generated, because the argument had been made in courts, that it didn't make any sense for a random and sequential number generator to store the telephone numbers. If they were gonna produce random and sequential numbers, they were just dialing them immediately. But we were able to find a patent that existed prior to the TCPA regulations that specifically showed that you could use a random and sequential and deduce around sequential number generator to store telephone numbers before calling them. So the Supreme Court relied heavily on that brief when it issued its decision that you actually have to use a random and sequential number generator to store and to produce and or store those telephone numbers before calling them as opposed to just dialing from lists without any without any type of human intervention. But you know what the problem with the Facebook cases, there's this footnote seven that also referenced our patent. And the court was trying to explain why it wasn't irrelevant that a ATS could or random, a sequential number generator could store telephone numbers. And so it referred to that patent where talked about sequencing numbers before dialing them. And so plaintiff's counsel have really latched on to that sequential generation of numbers happening and then dialing them. And so you know, the issue with that is such a broad definition, or concept that really any cell phone could be brought into that because the way computers work is they index phone numbers in some type of sequential fashion that makes sense to whatever the role is of the dialing of that telephone number. So we're starting to see some case law that is going both ways. I think the long and short of that issue is it's probably not a motion to dismiss. So you're probably not going to get out early on that issue. So you still have to be very careful, you should still have your dialers looked at you should get dialer, opinions on whether it's an ATS or not. I would also say for anybody out there who's listening to this, that is having an issue with that footnote seven from Facebook, we filed another amicus brief and the happiness versus Do Not Pay case that lays out the argument as to why footnote seven was not talking about just the sequential generation of numbers, but was just more specifically talking about the patent that we that we had submitted. And so if anybody needs that, feel free to reach out to me, I'm happy to provide it to you. Or you could look up the toughness versus do not pay, which was decided by the Northern District of California. Shark 14:04
We're obviously having a lot of challenges for brands for call centers, marketing teams, so forth to get their calls through to potential customers. What are the biggest challenges today that you see from a legislative standpoint for these brands? And what are the opportunities you see from a lawyer's perspective for how they tackle those in move forward to be able to connect with their customers? Sure, sure. Michele Shuster 14:27
Well, privacy is going to be the biggest issue moving forward. We're talking about dialing systems now. But soon it's going to be only privacy that we're talking about. Virginia just passed a new state privacy law that has private right of action. We all know about CCPA out of California, Nevada has made some changes to their privacy statute. And so really, what we're going to be talking about soon is the right to be able to use the information that we collect and who that can be shared with, what type of options you need to get together. consumers to opt out of the sharing of their data and how you have to honor that. So, you know, I think it used to be that privacy was an afterthought. Now, once you put a website together and asked for information and started collecting that consumer information, and that will no longer be as we move forward, this term of privacy by design, something that everybody should be thinking about, and should be thinking about how they're collecting information and what disclosures they're required to make and how they can handle and share that information and how they have to honor the requests to have that bad information deleted. So big issue moving forward. Just from the consent perspective, though, as we're looking at, you know, affiliate marketing, lead generation, whatever you would like to, to call it, consent is going to be the big issue. And it's going to be a big issue for two reasons, one, because states are looking at what consent requirements will be imposed by those by those states. And so it might not be the same requirements for consent is the TCPA. So you really have to understand how you can get consent. So that's one, two, some of the states are requiring that you also specifically get consent for text messages, it's not no longer adequate to just say you're giving consent to, to contact that concern that consumers giving consent to be contacted, it's got to be by that specific medium of contact. And then also, you know, the technology is changing now. Now there's this new requirement that's called stir shaken, that was put into effect starting June 30. And it's something that I'm sure most of your listeners, because they are very smart are already aware of. But, you know, now we have telecom carriers that are regulating what kind of messages can get out there. And specifically, a level of trust, it's called the attestation level between an A through C. So A, B, or C will dictate whether phone numbers or phone calls or text messages are blocked, or labeled as spam, or telemarketing a robot, excuse me robo call or something to that effect, when the when the consumer receives those. And so the key component there is, you got to work with your telecom carriers or your voice service providers, so they know who you are. And they know that you have the right to use the caller ID or telephone number that you're using. So you'll get an A level attestation. Because if you don't, it is going to be very difficult to get your telephone calls or text through to the to the intended recipient. So just a lot of stuff going on right now. And it literally changes daily, Shark 17:55
I could ask you the same question in 510 years, it'd be a lot of stuff going on. And it continues to change daily, especially as technology keeps going. But going back to consent a little bit, what is a best practice for people that they're not that you see that they're not taking advantage of with consent, in particular, I often, at least in my small opinion, think of the way that a lot of people collect information seems to be fragmented by channel, but then they blast it out across channels in the wrong way. You know, you may gather consent for Facebook, but then you abuse somebody on email, you know what I mean by that? Michele Shuster 18:33
Sure, sure. No, no, no, I know exactly what what you're saying. And so and I think it's implied in your question, as well. We have companies that are generating consumer information to provide to others to contact them about various products or services, you know, maybe it's, you know, maybe it's mortgage companies, I think that's probably a good one, we have a lot of marketers out there that are very good at accepting consumer information and determining which mortgage company would be best for a consumer based on a number of factors from credit rating to area of the country, to type of loan that they're looking for. And so, you know, in that context, and that, that, you know, obviously comply the principles abroad are but, you know, the best practices would be if we have a webpage that's collecting or collecting consumer information can for consumers who are looking at that specific industry, when they're providing their information. So they have, you know, a single single source kind of webpage and dedicated only to mortgage providers. And we don't also then have a marketing partners list that has literally 1000s of marketing partners that don't have anything to do with mortgage information. So So, you know, if we have those, you know, that single path of consent that is providing consent for a specific industry, and and then a specific seller would be the absolute best practice. But there are ways that you can generate consent for mark multiple companies or multiple sellers through that, through that path. But again, just in a nutshell, what's most important is, when you're getting consent from a consumer, it needs to be clear and conspicuous to that consumer, that they're providing consent for whatever you're going to do with that information. Next, if it's telephone calls, and telephone calls, text messages, text messages, uh, you know, if it's email, then let them know it's email. But now the consumer should understand what providing their information is going to lead to. And, you know, from the non legal perspective, we should just start with that. Shark 20:53
One of the biggest challenges, especially for call centers, in particular that we run into is somebody to fill out a form or they've given some sort of consent, and then we start calling him and we start calling him again, and companies start calling him again and again and again. How should someone effectively approach call limits with how often they should be calling a potential customer? Michele Shuster 21:17
Yeah, yeah. You know, it's a question we used to get a lot before regulation started coming onto the book, you know, what's the best practice for call frequencies and limits and then, gosh, is have been over two years ago. Now, the CFPB, provoked proposed the new debt collection rule. And that limits debt collection calls to seven calls in seven days. So that was where we started seeing call limits being being regulated. And then the FCC has limited calls to three in a month, for certain types of calls that were otherwise exempt from the TCPA, his consent requirements, because of by rule or by decision, the FCC had exempted them. They're limiting, as I said, three to three calls in one month. So that that is another set of call limits that that we saw in Florida, they're imposing call limits as well. And so you can't place more than than three calls within a 24 hour period. And so the trend is there and call limits call frequency is going to be an issue moving forward, we definitely don't want to over call consumers who stopped answering the phone when that happens. And I think you could look to, you know, probably the the debt collection will the seven calls in seven days, I think that is something that makes sense. Except, you know, if you're calling in Florida, you're gonna want to make sure you don't have more than three of those and a 24 hour period. But this is one of those things, you know, what our law firm, we call ourselves the, the 50, state survey queens, because we end up providing advice on how to comply with all 50 states. And usually, you know, businesses will opt to comply with the most onerous or if it's too onerous, they'll skip that state. But at least they have a way of understanding that by taking certain steps, they're going to be complying with most of the state regulations, and then existing out of states that that would be problematic. But you know, I don't know what the magic number is, I know, from the guidelines that we're getting what we're looking at, but I don't think that you know, consumers are looking to get more than a handful of calls in any in any single week. Shark 23:40
What actions should someone take if you're working for a brand as to you know, reasonable action to prevent robo calls, how they measure that, because if something does come up, they're going to need to prove it? Michele Shuster 23:54
Yeah, so really important to understand that the regulations require that companies have documented policies and procedures for complying with do not call and, you know, with the relevant regulations. So just really critically important that you've looked at your business process, and you've put together policies and procedures designed to comply with the law. And then once you've done that, it's critically important that you audit against those policies and procedures, are people actually following them? So for instance, when you're initiating a campaign, has that due diligence list already been gone through, you know, has the script been analyzed to make sure you have a proper disclosures? Has the list been scrubbed based on the type of consent that you have? Have you tested that consent to make sure that you can validate that you have consent? So you know, did that campaign get initiated in a way that followed your policies and procedures? And then, you know, the most important thing is if you receive complaints, we call those golden tickets because if you receive a consent complaint from a consumer, they are telling you that you have done something wrong and that gives you the opportunity to fix it. So, you know, instead of being annoyed when you receive a consumer complaint really have to focus on what it's saying and how that gives you information about how you can prevent annoyance to consumers, which leads to complaints. Or if you decide that there was a compliance gap, how you can fix that compliance gap. And then when you when you discover that there are issues, you've got to proactively act to change those immediately. Because once you have knowledge of issues, then it can become much more problematic and a litigation scenario. And, you know, I would, I would, I would say that, you know, there are other platforms out there that you can check to make sure that your telephone numbers aren't generating consumer complaints. The FTC has a FDA call database that you can go to and check your phone numbers to see if they're receiving consumer complaints. The FCC has just initiated a database that businesses can file complaints against illegal calls that are being made or unwanted calls, really, at this point also. And, you know, various agencies office will also have portals that you can check for consumer complaints, the Better Business Bureau, all agencies work with the Better Business Bureau and determining if they're going to take an enforcement action. So your your BBB rating, and more importantly, that you respond to complaints is just really critically important. So, you know, that's the that's what should be at the heart of all compliance programs. Shark 26:37
So we do all this from a legal and legislative standpoint, in order to protect consumers, which is what we need to do, but when is call blocking an actual harm to a consumer? Because that's got to come up as well, you can over regulate, or oh, it's almost like you're overmedicating your internal actions if you're a good actor. Michele Shuster 26:56
Yeah, yeah. So you know, of course, over the last couple of years, I have heard of hundreds of situations that call blocking could or has led to issues, you know, probably one of the, one of the worst in my mind that I heard was somebody who was on vacation, and they have one credit card with them. And there was a fraud alert that was sent to her. And because that call was labeled as fraud, likely, she didn't answer telephone call. And so that credit card got cancelled, and then she couldn't get it turned back on, until after she got back, back to back to home. So it led to some pretty significant issues to her. But, you know, we've talked about with regulators, you know, if you have loved ones traveling abroad, and God forbid, they have some type of medical issue, and, you know, somebody overseas is trying to contact you about that, under our new stir shaken framework that might get the, you know, C level attestation, that would keep that call from coming through, it would get blocked, and you'd miss that call. And, you know, I, the response I got from one regulator is that you can't protect consumers from themselves. So that's the that's the kind of response we get. But, you know, there are all kinds of situations where blocking labeling could be an issue, I will say that the telecom carriers are working on best practices for remediation of wrongly blocked or labeled numbers. So at the, you know, larger enterprise level that will make a difference on these one off calls that I just talked about, that won't make a difference. And, you know, all new cell phone subscribers who are signing up, have signed up unless they opt out to blocking of calls at the at the carrier level, or level. So it's a it's it's an area that you definitely need to be familiar with, from the legal perspective, but also just from what's happening out there in the telecommunication space with really unregulated denial of access for certain companies to the phone networks. Shark 29:17
So this question is going to be hard for me to ask an attorney the right way, but because I know the perspective somewhat that you're coming from as well, but are we making this entire process too complex? I mean, it almost seems like for a lot of companies, although there are some processes to document through if you try to actually write out the matrix that makes up the call landscape from a legislative and legal standpoint, it's a massive mess, and it's hard for a lot of people to navigate even if they have in house counsel. Michele Shuster 29:49
It is definitely complex. The laws and regulations out there are not easy to follow and contradictory even in some situations. So no, this is not a not an easy area to navigate, I think that it is going to get worse. Because I think that stir shaken is going to go a long way to preventing bad actors access to the telecommunications network, I think that will help tremendously. It was designed to help. But in the meantime, we have states that are now passing their own regulations. And I think frequently outside of the context of stir shaken and what it is going to be able to do. And so we're going to have regulations that are going to do nothing except harm legitimate business, because the lawsuits are against legitimate business. Sometimes the mom and pop stores on Main Street that didn't understand that there were these complicated regulations. And so, you know, it's, it's, it's an area as an advocate for that. So the contact centers in the United States, you know, representing pace that we frequently are speaking to regulators about and trying to, you know, guide policy and try to stop needless regulations that will only harm legitimate businesses and not stop any of the bad actors from making telephone calls. And we really have to get the regulator's to understand that. Shark 31:20
Well, and I know we covered it a little bit earlier, but broadly defined briefly, if you will, what stir shaken is. Michele Shuster 31:26
So stir shaken is a system that was designed to establish trust in the telecommunications network again, so basically, at its basest level, anybody who's originating a telephone call will be required to provide a token that travels with that phone call, or that text is a SIP header, and the token will either it'll provide other information but relevant to this conversation, it will say whether the call originator knows who's placing the telephone call. And if they have the right to use the telephone number that they're using for caller ID. If they do, they get an A level attestation, in which those calls are going to get through. If they only know that the telephone number that's being used, they know who owns it, but they don't know if they have the right to use that telephone number. And the situation where this can occur is in the enterprise set setting. So you have contact centers that have D IDs that they use, they work with multiple carriers, they know that, that that contact center is the right to use the telephone number, but they don't know anything about the campaign that they're making, and whether for instance, a caller ID that would go to the customer service number of the company that the calling on behalf of they don't know if that effect caller ID is something on the right to you. So that could lead to a B level attestation of a business isn't managing that correctly. And then the C level attestation mostly applies to overseas calls or when you have no information about the call that's being originated. And that that token, is it travels with a telephone call from the originating service provider through the intermediate carriers until analytics companies that the carriers are using that are taking that level of attestation and deciding whether to block or label a call. So a call could get blocked there. If not blocked, then it should end up eventually with the consumer who will be able to eventually have much more information than they do now about the call. And actually, this is something interesting worth talking about something helpful that's coming out of this whole process, which is the enhanced caller ID, which will give companies the ability to put more information than just telephone number. So it could be a logo of a company and potentially even get to the point where it could be average could provide some type of marketing text. So I think that'll make it more likely for telephone calls to be picked up. Shark 34:01
It'll be some sort of emoji of some sort. Yeah, all my robo calls will have the ice cream emoji. So Michele Shuster 34:09
yeah, yeah, your emoji would probably be a shark. Shark 34:12
It'll be a shark definitely be a shark. Tell us about the industry traceback group that you're involved with and why is that so important today? Michele Shuster 34:20
So the industry trust trace act group is a group that is managed by us telecom. And they are responsible for investigating complaints about call calls that are originated by carriers. Shark 34:36
And this all comes from the trace act, right? Michele Shuster 34:38
Yeah, it comes from the tray stack, which went into effect at the beginning of 2020. But but how it works is the traceback group has various methods that they use for collecting complaints, and also collecting pre recorded messages. Most of the industry trace backwards requests that I have seen over the last will probably say year have been around pre recorded messages. But what the industry traceback group does if they receive a complaint or if they receive a pre recorded message, and they believe that it's illegal or unwanted, they will trace that call back to the originating voice service provider, and then they'll give the voice service provider. I think it's 72 hours to respond to that, that the question that they have, who made the call? And do they have consent to make the call, if you don't respond to the traceback group, or if the information that you provide is not adequate, that will go beyond the trace act room because the FCC, the FTC, and state agencies have standing subpoenas to the traceback group to get the information that they collect. And so, you know, last year, you saw some, actually, it was It wasn't last year, it was in the, in the spring, time in the pandemic has become a little crazy. But in the spring, the FCC issued threats of cease and desist to a handful of waste service providers. And those were directly as a result of requests from the or from information from the US or that the traceback group. So you know, that that that requests gotta be taken seriously. Shark 36:21
So Michele, I know you are a diver as well. This is an obvious transition. I ask everyone who's a guest. What is your favorite kind of shark and why? And I know you've even done some diving around sharks as well. What's your favorite? Michele Shuster 36:34
My coolest experience w as diving in the Red Sea with oceanic white tips. It was one of the most thrilling things I've ever done in my life. They are curious and confident sharks, and so they get within one or two feet of you. They're anywhere from six to 10 feet, they look like baby great whites. And we were we were at a dive sites that two weeks after we left a German diver was attacked. And the lesson you learn is you got to have qualified professionals that you're working with because we spent hours studying how we would die with the sharks before we dove. really critical that you stay vertical you don't go horizontal. When you're when you're diving with these sharks and just most thrilling, it makes you know what it feels like to be alive when you get out of the water. Yeah, that was Shark 37:37
Yeah, oceanic white tips are beautiful. And they are they're very curious. And they they often get together in PACs, which you have to have to watch out for. They've been known to attack people, but they are you know, we're in their territory, not ours. So alright, well, Michele, it's a special time in the show. Are you ready for the five most interesting and important in least litigious questions that you're going to be asked today? Let's do it. Alright, number one. bearkats or Buckeyes. You're, you're an Ohio gal. Oh, you got to pick one of the other bearkats University of Cincinnati undergrad. So Alright, number two calls or text calls? And why so Michele Shuster 38:19
I better communication with consumers texts in person. Shark 38:25
Number three, are you more proponent of one federal regulation covering it or individual regulations from all 50 states? Michele Shuster 38:38
The government servant and me says federal regulations. The attorney in me says state regulation. Yeah. Shark 38:47
Better for billable. Alright. Number four Michele Shuster 38:50
regulations are the way to go though. Shark 38:52
Yeah. All right. Number four. As an attorney, you've probably watched a few attorney TV shows. What is your favorite of all time? Any of the law in order shows or the practice? Michele Shuster 39:07
Hollywood feel? Shark 39:09
Good choice I'll give. That was That was funny. The dancing baby. All right. Michele Shuster 39:13
Actually, the funny thing is though, the practice with Dylan McDermott. My middles are my last son. So my third son, I had run out of boy names at that point, and I was watching the practice and the name Dylan scrolled across the screen in the credits, and I was like, Oh, that'd be a cool name for a child. So he became Dylan based on Shark 39:35
funny. Yeah, if I saw him though, I would never ever since Saturday Night Live to this I would get him confused with Dormont no Rooney because they did a whole bit on what Who is it Dylan McDermott or Dermot Mulroney. And I don't know which ones which anymore. So number five, and the most important question that you're going to be asked today is biscuits or cornbread. Cornbread Okay. Well, you're still part of corn country. So I get that. Michele, where can people find out more about you keep up with your thought leadership in this space, find out how to get in touch with you for legal advice and more. Michele Shuster 40:12
So Ms Law Group comm is our website. And we have wonderful blogs there that keep you up to date on the breaking news without overwhelming you with daily daily doses of information. So a great place to find me and also get information about the laws that affect you. Shark 40:33
So Michele, thank you again for being with us today on a shark's perspective. Michele Shuster 40:37
Thank you, Kenneth. Shark 40:44
So that was my conversation with Michele Schuster, a founding partner of Mac Murray and Shuster, where she advises clients on proactively managing federal and state consumer protection demands. She's regulatory counsel to LeadsCouncil, as well as the general counsel to pace the professional association for customer engagement. Let's take a look at three key takeaways from our conversation with her. Shark 41:04
First, as she said, there's so many regulations today, if you're not working with a smart attorney specializing in this space, then definitely consider it general counsel at least is needed. But much of this requires a specialist because this is a very confusing area of the law. Make sure that you understand this niche because it's incredibly costly if you don't one from a legal and monetary standpoint, and to because you should never disrespect consumers don't place calls to consumers that they don't want to receive. They want what they want. And we must respect that. Shark 41:33
Second, it's so important to respect privacy. Privacy was an afterthought but that's no longer true. Privacy by design, as she said is how we should think about honoring this request. And that's on top of how we measure required consent and the technologies we have in place. And regardless of the channel when you collect consumer information from various sources, follow best practices and let consumers know with a single source that provides information on how that data will be used, and provide a single or at least a limited path of consent at something she recommends. Shark 42:04
Third, I listened to some marketers, especially digital ones who don't understand this space at all. And I grow concerned about the lack of knowledge. You've got to be able to understand this and later audit this and know what you're doing especially because again, you're using consumer data in respect to their privacy, and with how people have traditionally gotten too many calls. This is also not meant to make you overmedicate, if you will, but you have to respect consumers. Yes, it's messy to navigate. But from a sharks perspective, the best waters aren't always the easiest to find. Shark 42:35
Got a question? Send me an email to Kenneth at a sharks perspective dot com. Shark 42:40
Thank you again for the privilege of your time. Shark 42:42
I'm so thankful to everyone who listens. Shark 42:43
Thank you to the amazing sponsors, Invoca and Drips. Shark 42:46
Please consider writing a review and letting me know your thoughts on the show. Shark 42:49
Respect consumers and respect the waters below. And please join us on the next episode of A Shark's Perspective.
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