****Please forgive any and all transcription errors as this was transcribed by Otter.ai.****

Jodi Daniels 0:00

Hi, I'm Jodi Daniels, and you're listening to A Shark's Perspective.

(Music - shark theme)

Kenneth Kinney 0:21

Welcome back and thank you for joining A Shark's Perspective. I'm Kenneth Kinney, but friends call me Shark and I'm a keynote speaker, a strategist, a shark diver, host of this show, and your Chief Shark Officer.

Kenneth Kinney 0:32

And, yeah, yeah, I've been away for a while, but I'm back.

Kenneth Kinney 0:35

Well, when you think about the data breaches that make the news, you often realize how brands can blow trust with consumers and customers, but marketers collect so much data, we forget how much it's scary, how many hands are in the internet cookie jar, if you will, with everything you give away with every question and every click. But taking care of customer data is such a powerful mechanism for building trust, it can provide more loyalty and a much better experience with a little transparency just respecting their data, then the question is, how do you build trust one bite at a time?

Kenneth Kinney 1:08

We are welcoming back from way back on episode 58.

Kenneth Kinney 1:11

Jodi Daniels. She is the founder and CEO of Red Clover Advisors, a boutique data privacy consultancy, a speaker member of the Forbes Business Council, podcast host, and the co author of "Data Reimagined: Building Trust One Byte at a Time".

Kenneth Kinney 1:26

And on this episode, we will discuss building trust state laws with data and where we may be going federally, GDPR, ridonculous amounts of data collection, cookies, privacy compliance, doing the right thing, retargeting, the Georgia Aquarium, plastic sharks and the sharks that bully other fish, and a lot, lot more.

Kenneth Kinney 1:44

So let's tune into a data reimaginer with a shark reimaginer on this episode of A Shark's Perspective.

[music]

Kenneth Kinney 1:56

Jodi, welcome back to A Shark's Perspective. It was way back on episode 58, 300 something episodes ago, that you were on the show, and we're going to talk a little bit more about you and what's what's changed since then in your book, but if you will, tell the world a little bit about your background and your career, please.

Jodi Daniels 2:14

Well, thank you so much for having me back. I feel so honored and special, and I am in the world of data privacy. I'm trying to help make the complex simple. Literally, as of this recording, we actually have 14 privacy laws passed in the US, with one that just got passed this morning out of New Hampshire and is awaiting signature and likely to come to fruition. And then, of course, we have our privacy laws around the world, and we are a consulting firm. Think of us as the operational privacy people. We roll up our sleeves. We help figure out what you actually have to do, and then help you do it.

Kenneth Kinney 2:53

Well, my own background, I worked for one of the largest data companies in the world, and I had met you when I first went to an agency little conference and saw you speak. But one of the things that obviously tied me to to want to get to know you more and talk about your background was when I came from that world and went to work for a brand and went to an agency conference. It was just really interesting seeing all the ways for me through that few years of my journey with it, with that brand, how they leveraged data and didn't leverage data. And that's why I've really enjoyed our conversations before, and why I wanted to talk a little bit about your new book. So building trust one bite at a time, data reimagined. So tell us a little bit about data reimagined and the premise of the book?

Jodi Daniels 3:42

Yes. So the premise of the book is, first, it was co written with my husband, Justin Daniels. We do not work together, but like all good marriages, we should talk about privacy and security all day long when we're not at our jobs, where we talk about it all day long as well. And so I come from the privacy side, he is a technology attorney. And today, if you're a technology attorney, you really should know something about data and privacy and security, and on any given day, he can handle his fair share of data breaches and privacy and security and contracts, as well as actually fly a drone. And so we have a podcast. She said, privacy, he said, security. And we get so many different questions. The next evolution was really about, well, let's put it into a book. Some people like to listen. Some people like to read. And as more and more of the privacy laws kept passing, and then more companies also have to figure out, what do I do about security, and how do I really make it maybe not just this random function in a company. But how do I make it a core part of the entire business? We genuinely find ourselves repeating the same thing over and over, and we have both kind of a methodical way of trying to help companies either create and get started on privacy and security, help convince the business. Executive who might not exactly get it, and why they should, why it matters so much. If you are one that already has an organization, how do you make sure that you can stay abreast of all the new changes? And for us, the underpinning is it's about the connection to the customer, whether you're B to B or B to C, we just really feel like it's all about building trust. And we've been saying that before trust was a cool buzzword, and everyone was saying it, that's just the natural piece. And we packaged it all up into a book that's for the business person. It's not insanely technical. It's really meant to be something that someone can enjoy reading, and we sprinkle in a little bit of our humor and stories along the way.

Kenneth Kinney 5:49

You mentioned something about New Hampshire passing the law there, and I know we probably even referenced this way back when, with GDPR coming in at the time and then all these state laws. But where do you think we are with, where we will eventually be with, whether it's one federal law or 50 individual laws, and there's no chance on the planet that anybody can figure out without an abacus and a slide rule trying to figure out how to navigate all of this succinctly?

Jodi Daniels 6:19

In my opinion, so Jodi's opinion, we are on our way to a 50 state framework. We will have probably a similar one from an AI perspective. And I think privacy will mirror the way tax and HR laws are today, where you have a variety of very specific some might be a little bit more local in some situations, there are cities that have really specific local privacy laws. New York City has some specific ones when it comes to AI. San Francisco has some specific ones when it comes to cameras. And there's other examples. I really hope we don't get to that granular level, at a local level for privacy, but I do think we're going to have the state approach, and eventually a some type of federal law. I mean, we do have federal laws today, if you're in the health care sector, the financial sector, email, text messaging, phone calls. You know, we communications. There are federal privacy laws, just not at the kind of comprehensive and basically to address all the other data, and that is the piece that's missing.

Kenneth Kinney 7:26

Well, I used to think HIPAA was complex, but HIPAA doesn't even touch on the amounts of data that people, you know, that companies collect now. So when we dive into the book, I mean, early on, you and your husband write about trust being powerful, and I love the example you start out with about a furniture store and how much data is collected, even about your kids, and because it reminds me of stuff I've gone through. So you end on that chapter, though, talking about how companies can reimagine data as a new believe, you said, a medium of trust, and how it becomes part of that sales pitch. And I agree with that. You know, the responsible players rise above with a level of trust, but with so many, they still collect a ridonculous amount. Ridonculous is a technical term, amount of data. I like that word that we give away and consumers are not going to keep up with it at that point. Just you get, they get caught up in the noise. So when you think about this, although I believe that the responsible companies will always win. I also I don't see any slowdown in this collection at all.

Jodi Daniels 8:30

I don't see the slowdown for companies that haven't figured out privacy is important. I wish I could remember, but I'm gonna go with midlife brain forget failing me at the moment, it was just earlier in the week, there was, you know, some app, and said, Well, you could connect here, and then you don't have to enter everything again. Great. I'll click that button, and then it won in my birthday, I mean, my full birthday. And I thought, no, I This is stupid. I'm no, I'm just going to cancel the whole thing. You don't need that for whatever I was doing. It didn't make any sense. It wasn't congruent. It isn't part of my customer expectation that you needed my birthday seriously, for whatever it is that I was trying to do. And obviously it was so not important, I can't even remember the exact the exact story. There are companies though that understand that I will give you more data if I trust you. And it's it's a dance. You know, when you go out on a date or you meet a new friend, or you're at a new job and you're trying to make new connections, you don't typically ask every single thing that could be incredibly personal about them in the first three minutes, and companies are doing that in about the first 10 seconds, we have to get there slowly. I have to make sure I understand why I can trust you. Everyone listening on this call, I guarantee you, has picks at one time when they've been asked how much you make, or something about your family, the answer I prefer not to tell you or. You've picked PayPal or some other wallet feature over giving a credit card, and the reason is because people don't trust what's going to happen. And instead, if you create something that says, You know what I asked for, this data, used it responsibly. Here's how I want to use more data and how it benefits you, the individual, not me, just the company, but you, if you give me a little bit more about your family, I'm going to make sure that you get exactly the right email so you can sort through the clutter and buy what you need. Now, yes, I want you to buy my stuff, but I'm trying to help you. I'm trying to save you time. I'm trying to make sure you get the right product, then I might trust you and what so many companies do today is they miss that part, or kind of like the example, the furniture went just the other day, a different furniture company. I really want to opt out, but they've grouped everything together. There's no life cycle stage. There's no way for me to update. And if I opt out of everything I miss. You know, the three times a year I might actually want to receive something from that company, they aren't giving me enough choice. I think so many companies are scared of choice. They think the customer is going to opt out of everything or delete it all. They'll actually give me control. I what people want more than anything, is control. Let me tell you what I want, and then your messages are going to be better received by the person because I told you what I want, which means I'm going to actually click and open and engage.

Kenneth Kinney 11:29

One of the examples I think of too, when you start thinking of companies that pivot is the world was making the shift away from cookies. But what did Apple do? And then they did take a at least, I like to believe a more ethical approach, but now they collect even more data, and it's just housed with them, and they have the license to do with it what they will. So it's funny that, you know, we we trust Apple more often. It seems like people trust Apple more instead of other brands, but they're still giving away a ton of data, and that's that's a scary place to be in. So there's a little bit of a softball question, because I think I'd just like you to define why trust is hard.

Jodi Daniels 12:07

Well, I think a lot of reasons trust is hard. And the first though is that when someone buy trust is hard, because all too often someone violates it, they break it. If anyone here has ever told a secret to a friend when you were little or maybe still as an adult? It could happen. I just saw an adult scenario just the other day, and then someone shares that secret, and you said, it's a secret you have to promise not to say and then they say it and they share it. How do you feel you feel unhappy, you feel like you are alone. You feel like you wanted to be able to have someone to place confidence in, and that confidence was broken when a consumer or an individual is engaging with a company. And I want to give you data. So let's use the apple scenario that you just described. If Apple takes the massive treasure trove of data now has and starts to sell it, and truly, I mean, sell the actual access that here's the pile of data, not just the ability to contact or, you know, to send a message, but to actually give the data, then it would lose all of its trust and value incredibly quickly, because it built its brand and built its message on this concept of, oh, you can trust us. And so then everyone does, and all it will take is some small infraction, and people will then really question and no longer trust. It just takes a little bit to break the trust and not in my opinion, I think that's why it's so hard to earn.

Kenneth Kinney 13:44

And it becomes so hard just to rely on the good actors. It's often too much to put on them. I remember when I worked for this data company and other companies that were like that, that were under everything was under lock and key, if you will, with how they treated the respect to data, but I looked at the collection of data that so many companies were able to buy and sell, and it was, it was a little bit scary, how eye opening it was even to be, and I thought it was fairly sophisticated in in data, but it was nothing compared to all the brands that it's a big pool of of data out there that is being shared across a lot of different channels. So obviously, you write much about data collection, but later on in the book, you talk about this. How should we go about making the necessary mindset shift for companies today?

Jodi Daniels 14:31

Well, everyone wants to collect as much as possible for a variety of reasons. One, sometimes people feel it's the only chance I have. I'm never going to be able to have this opportunity to engage with this individual, and I have to collect it all now, I personally think if you create a good relationship with them, you have more opportunities to be able to collect data. So number one is the fear of not being able to do it again. The other is it's cheap and easy to collect it and store it. It doesn't cost. Lost all that much these days to be able to collect and store that data in the cloud and until there's a rule, people tend to just do whatever they want. I kind of always joke everything we ever needed to know we learned in kindergarten, right? All the all the rules came because so and so got out of their seat. So and So ate too much of the snacks so and so blurted out. The rules we have today are because people do things when they're not supposed to do them. To get to a mindset shift, we have to really think about, Do I really need that data? I mean, why am I collecting it? And do I absolutely have to have it? Well, the rules are now in place in a variety of states, saying you get to collect it if you have a business purpose, if you don't have a good business purpose, you don't get to collect it. So we have a rule, because the variety of companies went too far and collected too much. But here's where I really feel like that connection to trust is so important. If you ask for a lot of data, one the company is then trusting that the person giving it to you is going to give you accurate data, and you're making decisions on what I'm getting if I don't trust you and I don't like your questions, and you're forcing me to give you the data, not optional, but forcing, then I'm going to give you bad data. Now you the company are making poor decisions on that data, and I'm mad at you, and I made it up because I didn't like your question. There's no good trust that's built here. And what are marketers trying to do in the first place? We're trying to get people to buy stuff and we're selling our product or service is amazing. Trust us. Here's all these other people who say it's great and fabulous. Here's how we're going to solve your problem or your need or the desire you didn't know you even had. But you have to have this product well, trust on data, the same idea people want to trust, not only that, they'll fulfill the obligation of the product and the service and a great experience that you'll also do right by the data

Kenneth Kinney 17:05

Later on in the book, you used my favorite chapter title in elaborate, if you will, on when vulnerable is a bad thing.

Jodi Daniels 17:13

Well, I think sometimes people feel like they have to and companies feel like they have to be so strong and hold it all together and don't want to admit when they made a mistake, or don't want to admit why they're doing something, for fear that it could upset somebody else or they might misinterpret here's where I really think that language is and communication is so important. Here's why we're doing XYZ, or here's why we're not doing XYZ. I recall a long time ago, there was a company, and you could share your information. It would scroll through your inbox, it would unsubscribe you from places, and then people were really mad that the company was using data, and it kind of hit it well, had it been on and so then there's other companies who have since learned from that, and it's really clear, hey, we use your data. It's free because this is how we make money. You don't want to do that great, then don't come they're being vulnerable in that scenario, if there's a data breach, here's what happened. Here's what we're going to do to make it better. If we didn't protect your data, here's what happened, here's where we went wrong, here's how we're going to try and earn your trust back again. It's being honest and transparent, and that is a essential piece of trust.

Kenneth Kinney 18:34

One of the things I think about often with data is, to me, a lot of the toothpaste is out of the tube, and it's hard to push a lot of this back in I'm such a fan, for example, of using data for targeting and for advertising. It's fantastic what can be done at the same time. It's scary as hell when you think about all the applications. When someone reads this book, though, if they're in the marketing or an IT field, especially, what do you want them to do with this to get started,

Jodi Daniels 19:02

I want them to first understand that privacy matters, that it's not just a compliance activity that the legal privacy or security team is responsible for. I firmly believe that every single person in the organization is responsible for it. So that's the very first piece. The second would be is I want them to be very mindful of the data that they're collecting and that they're using, and understand how it all interconnects. If I'm a marketer and I ask you for a variety of data fields on a web form, I need to make sure that I have that on the privacy notice. An example, there was a company I was working with they had us only language. Now they were expanding, and it was going to be global. They said, You know what? I need to make sure that the privacy notice is going to cover our new expansion. To make sure that they were consistent. We were able to adjust. They're able to move forward. Everyone's happy. So if they had moved forward without that, now you have a privacy compliance problem, you have a trust problem, and you have a missed point, because privacy is just one more part of the business. So I want them to understand really do I need to collect this data, and I I also, I say my third piece would be put yourself as the customer first, think customer, then company. Yes, we all work for companies. Yes. We're trying to help make sure our companies are successful, and our companies will be more successful if we think from a customer lens first, then we'll also be able to put on our company protection hat, and that's the privacy piece, because again, ultimately, marketers are trying to sell things, and privacy is trying to allow and facilitate that. It's really not supposed to be the no zone. It's just that rules came along because a bunch of companies kind of messed it all up and did things that they shouldn't. And so now we have to play in the rule box, and there's still a lot of space to play in the rule box, and to do so and rise above and collect all the data and use it for all the targeting like you've just described, we have to build a really strong relationship with our customers and do the right thing.

Kenneth Kinney 21:15

Yeah, it's so often. I mean, I have conversations like this with companies all the time, but very rarely do I find anybody who wants to violate in any way you know, privacy and compliance type rules with data. You don't hear that said, most people understand themselves as consumers or just as people that they don't want their data violated everywhere. But then it translates into a legalese, and it feels like they're not speaking human anymore, and that's where it becomes crazy and frustrating. Well, I really enjoyed the book, so one of the questions I did not get to ask you last time that I asked everybody who's on the show, what is your favorite kind of shark, and why you live in Atlanta, you're close to the aquarium. You've got kids.

Jodi Daniels 21:58

You might laugh at this 1am. I allowed to say a plastic shark, because sharks scare me.

Kenneth Kinney 22:02

Okay, yeah, I got, I got plenty of them.

Jodi Daniels 22:06

I might go with a plastic one, because, though my, my daughter does like that was a hammerhead. Wasn't that? That was a hammerhead? The one I had, I know a little bit, yeah, she does like hammerhead sharks. And we actually have a really cute book. There's any parents listening that? Oh, I already forgot, if you Google, it has to do with sharks and caring. And it's an entire no sharks and bullying. Actually, sharks and caring is a different one. So it's all about how sharks have feelings too, and you have to include everyone. And the shark can't bully all the fish, and we all have to play together in the ocean.

Kenneth Kinney 22:41

Perfect. All right. Well, Jodi, we played this game before. Are you ready for the five most interesting and important questions that you're going to be asked today?

Jodi Daniels 22:48

I'm going to do my very best. All right.

Kenneth Kinney 22:50

Alright. Number one, who is a better writer? Jodi Daniels or Justin? Daniels?

Jodi Daniels 22:58

Well, the right answer I'm supposed to pick would be Justin. I think we have different styles and we work together, but I might pick me. I did. Actually used to write, and was like, wrote in high school and journalism and everything. So I'm gonna pick me, me, me, me.

Kenneth Kinney 23:10

Fair enough. All right. Number two, privacy or compliance, privacy, okay. Number three, we reference cookies, and it's in the book, but I picked a different one, chocolate chip cookies or white chocolate macadamia nut cookies?

Jodi Daniels 23:27

Chocolate chip cookies are the only option here.

Kenneth Kinney 23:30

Wow. Okay. Alright. Number four, another reference proven. I've read the book, The Jetsons or the Flintstones?

Jodi Daniels 23:38

I like them both.

Kenneth Kinney 23:41

But you referenced one that you really liked in the book.

Jodi Daniels 23:46

I did like the Jetsons.

Kenneth Kinney 23:47

Okay, we'll go with that. All right, number five, and it's a slightly different question. The it's the most important question that you're going to be asked today is fried chicken or fried catfish?

Jodi Daniels 23:57

Chicken

Kenneth Kinney 23:58

Okay? All right, so. Jodi, where do people find out more about the book? Find out more about you, your podcast, your consultancy and more?

Jodi Daniels 24:07

Absolutely, two places, red clover advisors dot com. We have all of it there. And then I would love to connect with anyone listening on LinkedIn. I spend a lot of time over there.

Kenneth Kinney 24:17

Jodi, thank you again for being with us today, again on A Shark's Perspective.

Jodi Daniels 24:22

Thank you.

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Kenneth Kinney 24:28

So there was my conversation with Jodi Daniels, the founder and CEO of Red Clover Advisors, a boutique data privacy consultancy, a speaker member of the Forbes Business Council, podcast host and the co author of data reimagined, building trust one bite at a time. Let's take a look at three key takeaways from our conversation with her.

Kenneth Kinney 24:45

First, most marketers have no idea how much data they collect. They may realize that privacy is important, but think about how often you give more data, and then more, and then more, and you don't think about the data that you give away, and often, it's why consumers don't. Trust how you the brand collect and use data, and then there's a data breach and confidence is broken, or something else like that happens. Trust is especially hard for brands, so take the time to earn it.

Kenneth Kinney 25:12

Second, don't do the basics with data collection. Go beyond that. First, ask if you really need it. Then ask if you've asked questions that help people trust you enough to give you good data. Don't force them into it. Jodi cites that customers will then often give you bad data if you force them into it.

Kenneth Kinney 25:27

And third, privacy matters. It's not just a compliance activity, and know that every person in your company is responsible. Some may have different roles with different levels of responsibility, but mindset wise, everyone needs to share the idea of privacy and compliance equally as they are interconnected. It matters to your customers, and it should matter to your company just as much.

Kenneth Kinney 25:46

Got a question? Send me an email to a new email address, Shark at Kenneth Kinney dot com.

Kenneth Kinney 25:52

Thank you again for the privilege of your time, and I'm so thankful to everyone who still listens.

Kenneth Kinney 25:56

Trust that I will be back very soon. Let's dive back in on the Next episode of A Shark's Perspective.

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