Transcription
****Please forgive any and all transcription errors as this was transcribed by Otter.ai.****

[intro music]
Shark 0:16
Welcome back and thank you for joining A Shark's Perspective. I am Kenneth "Shark" Kinney, your host and Chief Shark Officer.

Shark 0:22
Let me tell you about an amazing sponsor who helps make this show possible. I hope that you'll take a look at Drips, the founders of conversational texting where they use conversational AI to help you reach customers where they're most responsive, and that's on their phones. And working with major brands like Three Day Blinds, Mutual of Omaha, Credit Repair, and Ganesco, Drips is leading the way for some of the biggest brands in the world to improve engagement rates and outcomes for their prospects and customers.

Shark 0:47
And now back to the show.

Shark 0:49
What is the ultimate marketing engine for your business, especially for small businesses with so much at stake? Ask yourself if the ultimate marketing engine is a successful customer. Developing successful customers and clients for life takes a blueprint and not just a transaction. Let the race begin. And now is the time to start your marketing engine.

Shark 1:09
John Jantsch is a marketing consultant speaker greater the Duct Tape Marketing System and Duct Tape Marketing Consulting Network, and best selling author. His newest book is "The Ultimate Marketing Engine: Five Steps to Ridiculously Consistent Growth".

Shark 1:22
And on this episode, we'll discuss serving small businesses with practical advice, fixing the car with duct tape and how that turned into a best selling book, business, and marketing framework, surviving four teenage daughters, avoiding self important consulting speak, customer success strategies before tactics, members only and jean jackets, car engines and marketing engines, arrowhead vs mile high, nurse sharks and tigers and a lot lot more.

Shark 1:47
So let's tune into a duct tape marketer with a shark whose preferred engine is always on a boat on this episode of A Shark's Perspective.

Shark 1:59
John, thank you so much for joining us today on the sharks perspective. I've listened to your show many times and read some of your work. But for those that haven't had the pleasure of getting to know you please tell us a little bit about yourself and your career today.

John Jantsch 2:11
Oh, you bet. Well, I'll go all the way back to the beginning, I started my own marketing consulting firm a little over 30 years ago now. And like a lot of people I had no plan, I could hustle work, I knew that. And so I took big clients, little clients, big projects, little projects. And at some point, I got a couple of small businesses as clients kind of wanted me to be like their outsource marketing CMO or something. And I'd loved working with them. But they were really hard to work with. They were they had the same challenges, never seen budgets or even attention span. So one day, I just said, Look, I'm going to if I'm going to work with small business owners, I'm going to have to walk in and say, here's what I'm going to do. Here's what you're going to do. Here are the results we hope we get by the way, here's what it costs. And that, you know, that was an innovation. That was a welcome innovation for a lot of small businesses because it it solved their greatest frustration, which is, I think, still probably the greatest frustration for small businesses today. It's it's hard for them to buy marketing services, everybody's selling a piece of the puzzle, they're way more pieces of the puzzle now than there were 10 years ago. So So I went down that path I kind of productized marketing. That's why I gave came up with a name duct tape marketing was I felt like I needed a more product kind of name. That really resonated with small business owners that that metaphor. And so I essentially co opted made it the name, my business, the name of my first book, then my podcast. And now it's also the name of our network of independent marketing consultants around the world that installed the duct tape marketing system.

Shark 3:40
Was there anything about duct tape? Like were you fixing something at the time? Or were you bump your head? Do you have an epiphany?

John Jantsch 3:46
Well, I tell this story and you know, how stories are they? You tell them long enough, you know, they sort of become myth and legend or I'm not sure which is, which is really true. But I do tell the story often that I have four daughters and they were actually all teenagers at one stage. And my wife and I went out I think it was like the first time we went out of town where we said look, we're gonna have somebody come look in on you. But you know, we're not gonna have a babysitter there the whole time. Well, you know where this is headed. It's headed to to a party of about 200 people and one of the people decided to take our via a vehicle out and there was some construction being done in the neighborhood. And you know, they've had a porta potty, you know, in the yard a lot of times and so they thought it'd be funny to knock it over with the car. Well, not a little piece of plastic molding bumper, you know, often. So, after, you know, all the dust settles, my kids think, Wow, we got to fix the car. And so they got a roll of duct tape and fashion this little piece of plastic back on there, you know, in a way that you really couldn't see it, they probably would have gotten away with it, except they left the roll of duct tape on the hood of the car. And so when we drove up there, like, that's weird, you know? And so they You know, we separated them, you know, broke them down individually. But anyway we got that was about when I was looking for, you know this name. And if there is some sort of connection to, you know, a 16 year old knowing that duct tape fixes everything to, you know, being a good metaphor.

Shark 5:17
Well, congratulations on surveying for teenage daughters because I would have, I bet you didn't have a lot of sleep during this shear. So Well, before we dive into the into your new book, one of the things I've always really appreciated about you having listened to your show a lot and read some of your books, just as you have a work with large brands and small brands as well. And one of the traps that I find often that a lot of marketers fall into, and I do my best to guard myself against this as well as a lot of the talk in marketing. Sounds like people are trying to aspire that they all worked at some massive fortune 100 company and they emitted the marketing themselves and they are all McKinsey or Deloitte or Price Waterhouse consultants that have just, it's that consulting speak. And to your credit, I've not ever really heard that from you. It's part of your Midwestern roots as well. But I do as much as I can to not sound like a consulting expert of though I enjoy being paid like one on occasion. But but you know, I think for a lot of people, they they don't realize that we've made mistakes. And that's where we've learned, but how do you go about staying grounded as a marketer, and also helping those businesses, especially the small ones that don't want to be talked down to from a pie because the problems they have are just as complex, if not more, with a lot more limited budget more at stake?

John Jantsch 6:34
Yeah, I think it probably starts with this is who I wanted to work with. And and you know, at the time, there was really nobody trying to serve. I mean, we didn't really have the internet even so it made it much harder to even act like you were trying to serve that market. So I think that's probably part of it. I you know, I was I wanted to serve that market. I think the other aspect is, and this is why duct tape was such a perfect metaphor for me is that I just enjoy taking stuff that maybe seems complex and making it very simple and practical. And, in fact, I have no use for, say, some new platform that comes along unless I can figure out how it's going to help me serve my existing customers better today. And I think that that kind of staying rooted in that point of view that marketing's a system, it starts with strategy before tactics, and all we're doing is now figuring out, you know, how we can use these tools to make a better, you know, customer or buyer journey, you know, you really don't have to get too complicated with, with that. Everything that I wrote about in duct tape marketing, certainly appeals to the smallest of small businesses, it all 100% applies to a marketing department at a fortune 100 company. And I've had many of them tell me that, you know, but it's, it's this language of, you know, how can I remember, for example, when Twitter first came out, so this is around 2006 2007, a lot of small business owners are saying, oh, that's just stupid, I'm never gonna get that, because all they saw was, what other people were doing, or they go there for a while and look at all the river of stuff flowing by and go, How why? You know, and so my goal really was to show them how there could actually be a practical way to use this to serve your existing customers. And that's the only reason you know, if you can't figure that out, then then move on. So you know, I don't get, I've never really gotten. I love the new stuff. But I never really get caught up in the new stuff. And I think that that's probably a way to stay pretty grounded.

Shark 8:33
Amen. And you use the magic word. For me at least this is service. So let's dive in then to the new book, The Ultimate marketing engine five steps to ridiculously consistent growth. Great book again, by the way, thank you. You've written several, but you cover it early on, but describe what to you is the successful marketing engine?

John Jantsch 8:51
Yeah, so the ultimate marketing engine, I do put it in one statement is a successful customer because you know, that's right in maybe page two or page one. Because I think a lot of times people, a lot of times author spend six, first six chapters kind of getting around to the, to the idea. And I wanted to say here is what I mean by the ultimate marketing. Now I spend the rest of the book saying, what is the successful customer? How do you make a customer successful? Oh, by the way, you can't make every customer successful. And so you know, that's really what the five stages or the five steps are really all about is is we've got to figure out and I probably would suggest that the biggest innovation in this book is something I call the customer success track. It's actually an intentional way of mapping what you know how you make your customer successful, and probably exploring the fact that it may not be it may not actually involve things that you sell or services that you deliver today. But it's it's a point of view that says hey, my customer, here's where my customers or clients are today. Here's where they want to go, you know, how can we be the catalyst to take them where they want to go and that to me That's how you create customers for life. You know, that's how you scale your business with somebody that you're delivering value to, rather than going out and finding somebody else. So so really, once we get through the customer success track, I spend the rest of the book on Okay, now, you know, now let's make that the mission of our business, you know, how do we build our marketing around that?

Shark 10:22
Yeah, it's the first sentence of the third paragraph. So God bless you for doing this early and not making us wait till chapter seven to unpack it.

John Jantsch 10:29
But I had in my second book, I had a wonderful editor named David mould our and he's still out there. And I just remember, he would read some of my stuff and go, you're doing an awful lot of throat clearing here. Yeah. And I've always remembered that it's like, get to the point.

Shark 10:42
Exactly. Well, chapter five, unpack, if you will, with the customer, as a member mindset as fans.

John Jantsch 10:49
So So that's really how I'm trying to really position this idea of the Customer Success track is that, you know, what if and it really came a lot from me, you know, I, I had a real challenge, write this book, because I signed the contract March 15 2020. So it's like, if you're kind of thing for about two seconds, what everybody was doing right then. And I thought, Holy, crud, when nobody wants to read how to market in a time of COVID, I certainly don't want to write that book. But what I did see what it did inform this book is what I saw happening with a lot of my customers, I had, you know, there were some some of my customers were just in a tough industry that was, you know, just impacted, you know, very negatively. But I also saw a number of my customers not only survive, but thrive during this period. And the commonality was that they, they all had really had in their DNA that, you know, they were meaningful in the lives of their customers. I mean, their customers wanted them to be around to survive. And they went out of their way to say, what can we do. And I think that's always been true that the businesses that you know, that really, particularly in tough times, but the businesses that really thrive are ones that are meaningful in some way in the lives of their customers. And so, you know, that really became kind of the focus of this book is, you know, how could you actually, I mean, that's, that sounds nice. I mean, how many companies talk about being customer centric? You know, out there? I mean, it sounds really nice. So, I really kind of spent the, the, you know, the the bulk of my time in this book saying, okay, the thread is, you know, how can we be? How can we be more meaningful in the lives of our customers? And it's not just a matter of a better experience? I mean, it really is more a matter of, you know, could instead of just focusing on transactions, could we focus on on what's the ultimate transformation that you know, that our customers want? And can we be the catalyst for that? So I use the member term, even though it's a little confusing, because people start thinking about membership programs, and Costco and things like that encryption is a subscription, Janna and I, and I don't mean, those are great business models. But what I mean is really more of a point of view that, you know, what, if a customer What have you thought about a customer joining your organization, you know, as opposed to, you know, being a customer. And that's where I really came up with the member term, because I think it actually does imply, you know, a much deeper or different kind of relationship. And so, this customer success track that I've talked about is really the way that I then have have tried to make this practical, because it does have to be something that you create a blueprint for a roadmap for, so that it's not just, Hey, we're gonna fix today's problem, it's, yeah, we're gonna fix today's problem, the reason you came to us, but here's where we're going. And I think that, what, what I found is that, that could be the mission, that could end up being an actual mission for business, you know, taking our customers from where they are today to where they want to go, I can wrap my head around that, you know, I can hire for that. I, you know, I certainly can build my, my whole internal roadmap for what I want to offer, you know, based on that I can train for that I can delegate you know, for that once I build that customer success track. So you know, what started as, as a nice way to demonstrate how marketing could be done, really turned into I think, what could be the ultimate marketing or not just marketing, the ultimate strategy for any business out there. Because in the book, I do, thoroughly map out and then there's a companion resource site that gives you all of the tools that I use. If you buy this book, and nothing else, you're going to get the roadmap for how to do marketing in your business. But my real goal, in bringing this idea to the world is that I think every business could build this for their customers. And that, you know, if, if, if I'm truly successful with this book, I will I will start hearing from companies that are doing that for you know, for their customers, regardless of what they're in what business they're in, or you know, not nothing to do with their marketing necessarily, but that becomes their product and service roadmap.

Shark 14:49
One of the things I also really appreciated about how you viewed mindset was also addressed in a small chapter inside that same one about hiring. Yeah, or saying paragraph, and I'm going to quote it said that the notion of hiring for fit is a stated goal of many organizations. But fit is a pretty broad term, attracting talent based on shared mission and culture is another often stated goal. But again, if the mission is contrived, and the culture undefined, these attributes won't serve, I love that comment on so many levels. Because everybody's having a challenge to fix culture, everybody's having a challenge to hire good talent, getting those two things to even merge together is going to be a challenge to kingdom come. So getting that broader adoption of the mindset was, was fantastic.

John Jantsch 15:34
Well, and I think one of the challenges a lot of people faces they get, they're told you have to have mission and values and vision. And so it becomes this academic exercise, you know, but you don't create those things. They are, you can reinforce them. But for especially for small businesses, quite often they are, they are really a reflection of who the owner is being. And you know, you can't make those up and put them on a plaque. And so that's, that's why I think that, that we've got to come up with this idea of a mission that is so simple, that everyone can understand it, and everyone can bring themselves to it, as opposed to us styling. Here's the values that you have.

Shark 16:11
Yeah, gotta be able to recite it, remember it not have it written by some third party. So another very trendy topic for marketers is talking about problem solving. And you talked a lot about this in the problem solving matrix elaborate, if you will, on how you view that?

John Jantsch 16:26
Well, here's the I think I start that chapter. I hope I start that chapter with this statement, because I say it all the time, that no one wants, what we sell, they want their problem solved. And our job as marketers is to help them understand we get you. I mean, because a lot of times people just know the symptoms, they don't really know what their problem is. I mean, quite frankly, almost every business that hires me hires me be, well, I sell marketing strategy, No one wakes up and says, I'm gonna go get some marketing strategy today. But they do wake up and say, How come I can't charge what I'm worth, you know, or how come I look like just like my competitors and can't differentiate? Well, those are strategy problems. But but if I can, if I can address the problems that they're feeling, why you can't charge enough, you know, why you can't differentiate your business, then they're gonna say, you got me, you, you do understand the challenge I'm having, and oh, by the way, it's a strategy problem, let's connect those things. And that's really what I'm getting at that, in that whole chapter really, is that, you know, we have to meet customers where they are particularly early on in the journey, you know, we, we often want to run ads and say, buy from us. And, and, you know, we're, we're not addressing the problem, we're not helping them understand the problem, we're not guiding them to, you know, the, what, you know, what's next after we fix that problem. And so, you know, by focusing on and, and some people feel like, Oh, that's so negative. But, but that's really what people want first day in, doesn't mean you can't come with rainbows and unicorns, you know, right after that, but they have to know that you get them. And the fact that, you know, if I if I go to your website, and all it says is what you do, I may not, I may not actually have connected what you do with solving my problem. But if I go there, and you say, I get example, I love to cite all the time is a tree service, I think it may be in the book too. And that terrible. I've read too many books. Can but and it's that, that, you know, most people believe that tree service, if they've got chainsaws and trucks can cut down trees. But what they don't believe is you'll show up on time when you say you well to do the work or to quote them that you'll clean up the job site. And, and so you know, the tree service that does that. That's the problem that they're actually solving for somebody not, you know, cutting down the tree. Now, we all know that, that there are a lot of companies that won't cut the tree down Well, and, you know, do a terrible job, but that's the assumption. So if all I'm saying is we cut down trees beautifully, you know that, that's like, Well, yeah, okay, next, you know, what's, you know, can I get a cheaper price out of you. But if if that company is saying, we'll show up exactly, when we say we will, in fact, we'll give you an on time guarantee that gives you $100 off before late 15 minutes late, I mean, that company now is going to immediately differentiated themselves from from everybody else. And they've addressed the problem that most homeowners have, I mean, who wants to wait around for the, the the tree service for for four hours. So that's, that's, that's really what I'm getting at, in that is that we have to base our entire business around that. And I'll tell you, a lot of people say, Well, I don't know what the problem I solve is, you know, and but I give you some great tools in this. The first one is just Why don't you ask your customers because they know but and, and the beauty is you don't even have to ask them. If you're one of those businesses that is increasingly reviewed in places like Google, they are telling you because we turned to Google and leave a five star review because so But he did something we didn't expect, you know, we're not getting that from the, from the companies that we've purchased from before. And that's why we're so thrilled to leave a review. And we will talk about in our own language and our own words, exactly the problems that you're solving for us.

Shark 20:14
Later on, you talk about attracting ideal customers, as well as scaling with those. Yeah, made a great point about how referrals are happy accidents resulting from having done good work. Yeah. So how do we go about scaling that ecosystem, if you will, and our relationships with our customers?

John Jantsch 20:33
Yeah, so I, one of the things that I do with this idea of ideal customers, I mean, I actually come out and say that you should narrow your focus to the top 20% of your existing clientele, which freaks a lot of people out, of course, but but those are the people that are probably your most profitable, and it's not necessarily your biggest customers, sometimes those aren't the most profitable, but the most profitable types of customers who already refer business to you. Those two characteristics, what I have found is that they had the right problem. They were the right fit, they had the right values and beliefs that were matched with you and they had a great experience. That's why they're referring you. So if we can understand who they are, and go to work on on really building our entire business around not only attracting more of them, that's that's a nice thing. What could we start discovering what else we could do for them? You know, I often tell people that that one of the other ways to start thinking about your best clients, who do you deliver? Or who could you deliver the most value to the fastest? That combination, I have found that group of people, obviously, they got value, they got it immediately. They're going to be raving fans. And they probably would say, what else can you do for me, and and I think building our business, you know, by doing 10 times more business with that best customer or 100 times more business with that best customer is such a more effective way to build momentum and scaling a business than it is to go out there and get somebody else to trust that you can provide a solution for them.

Shark 22:07
So you're a Midwestern guy, and you probably haven't come across as many as I have as a as a diver. But I asked this of everybody that comes on A Shark's Perspective. What is your favorite kind of shark and why? Do you have a favorite shark story?

John Jantsch 22:20
Um, I have only I have, I have done some, some scuba or not scuba, but snorkeling with some sharks. And so the only ones I really have any familiar with are some of the tastiest sharks out there that will come up and bump into you and not really care. And I think they were called nurse sharks,

Shark 22:38
Nurse sharks. Yeah. Yeah. Nothing wrong with that at all.

John Jantsch 22:43
So that's all that's all I could say. Although I will say that one time we were kayaking in in Mexico and Baja. And there's little tiger sharks. There's little tiny guys that would come right up to the shore and grab you know, fish and stuff. We're kind of fun, too. Yeah,

Shark 22:58
I'll be swimming with Tiger sharks on Tuesday. So John, it's a special time in the show where we get to know you a little bit better. You ready for the five most interesting and important questions that you're going to be asked

John Jantsch 23:10
today? Probably not, but I'm guessing you're going to ask anyway. Good, man. Good,

Shark 23:14
man. All right. Number one. Duct tape or gorilla tape. And we're only talking tape, not the duct tape marketing. We're just talking tape.

John Jantsch 23:25
Oh, I'm surprised you asked that. Kenneth.

Shark 23:28
I know it was it was a little bit of a softball, but I had to throw it in there.

John Jantsch 23:32
I do like Gorilla Glue though. Can I do like really?

Shark 23:35
Good save. Good save. Alright. We've been talking a little bit about members. So favorite jackets of all time. denim jacket or a members only jacket.

John Jantsch 23:47
Uh, you know, for whatever reason, I never rocked the jean jacket. But I still today have a members only jacket. And as you might imagine, I've actually been using it in in presentations. Oh, yeah. I saw it. Yeah. Around this book. Yeah.

Shark 24:05
I saw your presentation in Cleveland. That's why I asked that one. Alright, number three. We've been talking a lot about engines. Your books have been a lot about engines. Yeah, but let's talk about car engines for a twist. Would you rather have an all electric ford f 150. Lightning, or an F 150. Hybrid? Gas and Electric.

John Jantsch 24:26
I have a for what it's worth given for $100 to reserve a lightning when it comes up to that. Although I do have to tell you that my dad Don't ask me why years ago. This is when the 60s now probably 70. So I wasn't driving in the mid 70s had a Bonneville that had a 455 kitchen and that thing was slow is all get out to 60 but then it would go about 150

Shark 24:55
Yeah. 100%. Yeah. Well, it seems always hard to ask that guy. Question I started to use a Tesla or a V eight Corvette or something like that and it just didn't seem fair. Alright, you're from Kansas City but live in Colorado. Now. Let's say that the chiefs are playing the Broncos would you rather watch that game at Kansas City's Arrowhead Stadium or at Denver's Mile High Stadium?

John Jantsch 25:22
I think I'd rather watch it in Kansas City just because obviously your your your home to home fans, for sure. But I will I will make sort of a soapbox speech here you know, the those people that that move to another city and then adopt that fan of you know, rather than staying with their childhood teams, you know, I'd lose all respect for so anyway. Can't see Royals can see chiefs forever.

Shark 25:45
All right. And number five, the most important question that you're going to be asked today is biscuits or cornbread.

John Jantsch 25:52
Ahhh. Biscuits started the morning country. But you know, cornbread with enough butter on it's tough, tough one. Throw some jalapenos in there, but I make a killer mushroom gravy. So I'm going with biscuits and gravy.

Shark 26:06
Good man. All right. Well, John, where do people find out more about you the duct tape marketing system, the podcast, the book and more.

John Jantsch 26:13 You bet. So I have a special site just for the book if they want to check out more on the book, The Ultimate marketing engine.com So just like the title, the marketing engine, comm ultimate marketing agent calm. And then if you just want to check out what I've been doing the last few decades it is duct tape marketing.com. So that's d u CT. Tip marketing.com.

Shark 26:34
Awesome. John, thank you so much for being with us today on A Shark's Perspective.

John Jantsch 26:38
Now my pleasure is a lot of fun again.

Shark 26:46
So there was my conversation with John Jantsch, a marketing consultant speaker, creator of the Duct Tape Marketing System and Duct Tape Marketing Consulting Network, and best selling author. His newest book is "The Ultimate Marketing Engine: Five Steps to Ridiculously Consistent Growth".

Shark 27:01
Let's take a look at three key takeaways from a conversation with him.

Shark 27:04
First, let's talk about rhetoric. Lots of air quote thought leadership out there from a lot of people who talk in what I call consulting speak, they recite a lot of best practices from a lot of the folks with lots of followers whose claim to fix everything is just to listen to their eloquent marketing advice, or they worked at Google or Apple for five minutes and a team of hundreds of others are at some big consulting firm, all smart people I'm sure, but a lot of its BS and doesn't serve a lot of the small to medium sized businesses with people who don't have a ton of money to recover from bad advice taken. It's up to us to communicate more practically, with not what is just popular groupthink, but what will fundamentally deliver results for that business's customers that shouldn't include all the junk science from funnel advice or top 10 Instagram hacks, or what sounds good when only spoken by an air quote, thought leader. So do your best to communicate real practices rather than just air quote, best practices with practical advice, and sage strategies and fundamentals. Try listening more, instead of just expecting everyone to listen to you up on high, it's got to truly serve their customer.

Shark 28:12
Second, love the intro in the book where he says that the ultimate marketing engine is a successful customer. And so what is a successful customer? Well, for each of us, that's somewhat different depending on the type of business we're in. I would recommend the read of the book, though, to help you continue to figure out what that means for you.

Shark 28:30
Third, can you look at your customers as members? I like that part of John's Customer Success track? And how do we make this more practical? The mission may just be to define that track. And then to ask yourself for your customers. Where are they now? Where do they want to go? And how do we help them get there?

Shark 28:46
Got a question? Send me an email to Kenneth at a shark's perspective dot com.

Shark 28:51
Thank you again for the privilege of your time. I'm so thankful to everyone who listens.

Shark 28:55
Thank you to my sponsor in the team at Drips!

Shark 28:57
Please consider writing review and letting me know your thoughts on the show.

Shark 29:00
It's time to go out there and give some good advice, not just the advice that sounds good, but the kind that will truly serve our customers. You'll get that practicality here. So please join us on the next episode of A Shark's Perspective.
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