Episode 308: David Horsager
“What Does Trust Mean to You?”
Conversation with David Horsager, the CEO of the Trust Edge Leadership Institute, a global authority on helping leaders and organizations become the most trusted in their industry, and the author of “Trusted Leader: 8 Pillars That Drive Results.”
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Transcription of the Episode
Transcription
****Please forgive any and all transcription errors as this was transcribed by Otter.ai.****
[intro music]
Shark 0:16
Welcome back and thank you for joining A Shark's Perspective. I am Kenneth "Shark" Kinney, your host and Chief Shark Officer.
Shark 0:23
Let me tell you about two amazing sponsors who make this show possible.
Shark 0:26
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Shark 0:51
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Shark 1:16
And now back to the show.
Shark 1:18
What does trust mean to you? What holds a lot of brands back from being considered trustworthy is complex. It's often inconsistency. But corporate and personal brands all over the world can contextualize this differently, even though trust means so much to us as humans, often in the same way across the globe. It may just be the way we approach trust and how we apply it. So I ask again, what does trust mean to you?
Shark 1:44
David Horsager is the CEO of the Trust Edge Leadership Institute, a global authority on helping leaders and organizations become the most trusted in their industry, a keynote speaker and the author of "Trusted Leader: Eight Pillars That Drive Results."
Shark 1:57
And on this episode, we'll discuss the trusted leaders, the eight pillars of trust, and they all start with C, root causes, consistency of a brand, measuring and contextualizing trust all over the world, a survey of most trusted brands, trust in a pandemic, hot chocolate trust, confusing Minnesota with Wisconsin, Chick-fil-A versus the DMV, the trust a guy that chopped down a cherry tree, and a lot, lot more.
Shark 2:20
So let's tune in to a trusted CEO with what is obviously a trustworthy shark on this episode of A Shark's Perspective.
Shark 2:33
David, thank you so much for joining us today on the sharks perspective, if you would tell us a little bit about your background, your career to date.
David Horshager 2:40
Kenneth, thanks so much. Hey, I go back. I was director I was on staff and then Director of Youth and Family organization out of college. Then I started my first company in 1999, Lisa and I did no kids yet. And we we we thought if we could make 700 bucks a month, we could keep our urgent bills out of the way. And I remember I started that business was one $500 invoice or that I could send out and so we moved back to Minnesota after direct mail organization Arkansas, and I lived in the basement of 86 year old Clara Miller's with by that October we had $1.42 Our name no bathroom, kitchen or windows in that basement, we'd go upstairs and share hers. We lived there for two years. So it kept expenses low. But little by little we can I was asked to speak on some of the leadership curriculum I had created down at that organization started more in the Youth World. And then my grad work in the early and mid 2000s became very interesting, important around trust. And that was you know, almost two decades ago, that people much more important and interesting than me thought and that was very monumental. In all this trust work we do. Fast forward. You know, I've written three, you know, bestselling books on it, we do an ongoing piece of research every year biggest study, maybe at least out in North America on trust and leadership we do. We measure trust with us everything we speak, I speak, you know, 100 times a year on trust or more, I guess last turn COVID out of studio and we do training workshops. We do equipping where we certify others in our in our trust work. And basically we're just trying to develop trust leaders and organizations around the world. And it really in the last little over a decade. It really the first decade was challenging, more challenging and the research happening grad work. The second half, you know, second decade now, you know, work with everything from pro sports teams to global governments and corruption issues to the biggest companies in the world on trust issues. And and yeah,
Shark 4:40
So you're in Wisconsin now. What are you doing in Arkansas?
David Horshager 4:43
I'm in Minnesota, which is different than Wisconsin?
Shark 4:45
Why did I say that? I meant well,
David Horshager 4:47
I'll tell you what, I can almost throw a rock to it. But I'm on the Wisconsin side of Minnesota. But um, yeah, so I was director of basically the the year round program. that comes out of the biggest Christian sports camp in the country. So I'm I was director of K life, which is, it stands for kids life, which is a little deceptive because it was really older, like I was focused on college age, high school, you know, and so forth. And so I was speaking a couple times a week, then two, and I'd built some orientation for these leadership curriculum for these kind of college leaders and stuff. And, and so that was a that was a start, and it's faith based organization that was nondenominational. I loved it had a great board learned a ton about leadership early on, for a number of reasons there. What city I was based, first of all, Branson, Missouri, and then Harrison Arkansas,
Shark 5:46
I know them both.
David Horshager 5:47
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Shark 5:48
Much warmer summers.
David Horshager 5:50
Yeah. Hot.
Shark 5:51
Well, yeah, very hot. So David, what does trust mean to you?
David Horshager 5:57
Well, I mean, you know, I can get academic quickly after now, I haven't been a professor and haven't studied it. So research base, but I mean, in a simple way it man, it means everything, it whether it's with my wife, my kids, my, my organization, I mean, it really, I believe, a lack of trust. And the research proves this. But I believe in my heart, too. A lack of trust really is the biggest cost of an organization. I believe the question everybody's asking about you, Kenneth about me, whether it's your spouse, partner, friends, or clients and customers is not Do I like you? I mean, I've got friends that like a lot, right? I wouldn't go into business with them in a million years. Because I don't trust them. It's, it's Can I trust you. And that's where the, you know, with the board work I do. The biggest the biggest job of a board is to, is to mitigate risks around trust, I believe losing trust, I believe, you know, I think one thing now and this gets shown in my newest book, trusted leader that just came out, but it is a core, it's not just, it's just not rote thinking from research, it is the root issues as a trust issue. It's not a as an example, a leadership issue. The reason I follow leader not stressed, it's not a sales issue. The reason I buy or not has something to do trust, it's not a learning issue. The reason I any kid learns anything in a classroom is the trust of the content, the teacher, or the trust, or psychological safety of the room. It's not, you know, basically only goes up when people trust each other than they share ideas. And, you know, the biggest Harvard study shows diversity as a problem. Diversity on its own tends to pit people against each other. Unless we increase trust, the only way to get the benefits of diversity, inclusion, equity, belonging is increased trust or even marketing, there's only one way to increase some, you know, amplify a marketing message, you get increased trust in the message. So that became, you know, now you can see, oh, I can see that real quickly. I bet that's just a line. Well, it's not a line, it's a heart core issue for me that it is trust matters more than ever, but it always mattered. But it really is the real core issue, not communication, or leadership, or, you know, these kind of things. So that that's part of it.
Shark 7:57
Well, one of my favorite slides in almost every presentation I do is is some dumb picture I got from somewhere because there was only there were only so many trust pictures, you can come up, you know, you can find and it was some wooden blocks that formed the word Trust, because I hear everybody talking about like, know, and trust all day long. And all they focus on is like and no. But when you throw the word Trust in there, it doesn't resonate with people, they don't understand what it means. But it makes or breaks as you just say, makes or breaks every relationship you've got with anybody you work for buy from work with, it can make or break everything.
David Horshager 8:34
And it might I might add, it's more complex than people think. So even I thought I know what all about your Oh, it's just, you know, integrity, or it's just character just, it's it's not. It's more complex. It's like, I think, as an example, some people that are you trust is transparency or vulnerability. It's just transparency. Now that can be really important and good. There's a lot of data around that problem is some of your kids are so transparent on social media, I don't trust them for a second, because confidentiality is also trusted. So there's it's just, it's a little even this though it's this root issue. It's not just oh, it takes a long time to build trust, in a moment of crisis trust is built like that. It's not if I extend more trust in my team, I'll get more out of them. Oh, until I extend too much. So some of these traits are simple phrases people think trust is it's not a full enough view of this concept of trust that actually does affect everything more than anything, whether it's in business or personally.
Shark 9:28
So let's talk about your new book that came out in 2021. Right as the pandemic was starting to wind down whatever that is, that may be a nebulous date from here on out but trusted leader eight pillars that drive results. What was the inspiration for that book and tell us a little bit more?
David Horshager 9:44
Yeah, a couple things about that trust edge which is still selling and is evergreen, is you just kind of you know 300 Some pages it's got some of the research and it's relevant, usable, but and then daily edge was simple, actionable tools. trusted leader one We've learned a lot in the decades since trust edge was built, or written. And two people want something simpler and quicker to apply. So the first half of of trusted leader is this great parable, business parable that shifts thinking about trust. So people see how it matters more than ever. So they see, oh, trust is the root issue. And they, they kind of have this epiphany board work room experience tied with this, this this story of this entrepreneur, and who could have lost everything and ends up, you know, basically saving the place based on this shift of thinking around trust, which, in fact, you know, is based on a true story of some organizations I worked with, so that seeing Trust, the root issue, I kept seeing two probably problems before this book, one, they don't see Trust, the root issue, people don't. And number two, it's something people either they think they have it or they don't, when, in fact, you can actively build it every day. And so that the first half of the book kind of shifts thinking the second half of the book is then a quick look at the eight pillar framework, and ways that people can build those pillars starting tomorrow morning. So some quick takeaways, the, you know, the way I lost 52 pounds in five and a half months, it's in the book the way we've had people say to us this one idea, they tripled sales in 90 days, that's in the book, the way people you know, kind of built these, this eight pillar framework, which is why you know, the eight that I believe trust is built on. There's takeaways that are quicker and more usable, you know, tomorrow morning,
Shark 11:29
and they all had to start with C, which was...
David Horshager 11:33
Yeah, they start with C, but let's be clear here, because that can really come across quickly as some cheesy motivational book, they represent each of those eight represent a research funnel, you know, or a meeting. So I mean, I can whip through them really quickly. So people understand, okay,
Shark 11:48
Clarity, compassion, character, competency, commitment, connection, contribution, and consistency,
David Horshager 11:53
Right. So I believe you can solve every organizational leadership issue against these eight, when you language it against these eight, this doesn't mean I'm perfect. That doesn't mean we don't contextualize for work around the world. But we think about it clarity, okay, people trust, the clear, and the mistrust, or distrust the ambiguous or the overly complex, we find both problems as you know, people over complexified compassion, people trust those that, you know, feel, you know, that you care beyond they care beyond themselves, I have a hard time following or being accountable to someone I don't believe cares, beyond you know, they don't care about me, they care about something missionally beyond beyond this character, we kind of flesh that out. It's not just integrity, it's this it anyway, it's really critical. And, and once again, sometimes people think, believe in a false psychology that you, you have all the character you're going to have by 12 years old, it's not true. We're moving toward or away from character every day. So you know, in fact, in our incentive programs up here in Minnesota big bank was incentivizing a lack of character in the last billions, right? So competency, this is why I might trust Kenneth, and that, you know, take my kids to the ballgame, but not give me a root canal because of competency. You got to be you know, competent, the way you're going to be trusted and commitment, and, and the next one's connection to build, connect and collaborate the next one's contribution, contribution. By the way, the number one word that came out of that research funnel was contribute results, performance outcomes, you can't just have compassion character and not contribute the results expected or asked for. And then you have consistency. And that's the queen and king of the pillars. I mean, whatever you do, consistently, I'll trust, right? If you're late all the time, I will trust you to be late. So so that, you know, that's a quick, this is a, you know, a whole life's work of a couple of decades, and I can go in to any of these eight pillars for at least a full day. But there's a overview of the eight.
Shark 13:43
Yeah, well, I mean, it's fascinating, because there are a lot of speakers who are known for one specific topic, but because you provide so much research around your own topic, it's hard not to trust your trust topic. So what do you find that generally holds brands back from being considered trustworthy?
David Horshager 14:05
Well, I mean, that's, that's a big question. You could go through any of the pillars. But you know, commonly, they are not consistent, a brand's consistent, a brand is built on consistent just like an individual's built on reputation. I mean, a reputation excuse, excuse me, is built on consistency, whatever I do, I said it before, if I'm late all the time, I will trust you to be late. So whatever you do consistently, however, there's actually lower trust if you're late, sometimes on time, sometimes this way sometimes all over the place. It's like I can't trust you right? And that's the same as the brand if I go and I see oh, the go to this bank, and the loan officers amazing but the front the teller is terrible. And then the paper is like look glossy and really cool to understand. Then I go to the web portal. It's terrible use that inconsistently, just lost their brand. So one thing that kills brands is inconsistency in in touch. If I go to sustain with franchises, I mean, it Does not matter where I go, if I go to Chick fil A, they're gonna stay My pleasure, right? They're gonna the lions gonna go faster? Don't we wish the DMV would learn from Chick fil A I mean, they know how to do certain things. Um, they're the same whatever people believe politically or not, it's just, they there's consistency certain places. On the other hand, franchises that don't have consistency, they lost and it's, you know, any organization, but that that's a way to build a brand or not as be consistent. You know, in whatever way, you know, inexperience basically.
Shark 15:34
Well, if I could just get a sweet tea and a chicken sandwich at the DMV, I would get a new license every every week, you'll stand in line for that. Exactly. Well, you work with a myriad of global brands, how much does trust also alter? Across the world? The way you look? You know, your worldview of trust, if you will, is much different than someone that's in Nigeria or Brazil or England? How do you sort of establish that framework that's racist? And as well,
David Horshager 16:05
in one way, I'll tell you this Are human all around the world, it turns out, so I have a friend that that, that, you know, he's a, he's a wealth, basically manager for just kind of like these wealthy families to the next generation or whatever. And he said, Everybody comes to me. And they think they're totally unique. And, oh, our family's different, oh, our wealth problems are different o r, and they're all the same, almost always. But he listens, and he loves them, right. And in a way, that's the same about trust. So that in a way, whether I'm dealing with corruption issues in East Africa, or I'm dealing with some issue with the New York Yankees, or whether I'm dealing with a business issue at FedEx, or whatever, they're in many ways the same, because because they include one commonality, and that's humans. Okay. Now, that does not mean we don't contextualize. So here's what we found from our framework, we found number one, overall, a lack of trust is so still the biggest cost, whether you're a nonprofit, or for profit, a person doesn't matter, marketer whatever, around the world, that it and absolutely trust is the leading indicator around the world, every organization. The eight pillars actually also are from our both experience, our our research, Global Studies, our you know, and we have certified coaches on on six continents. So all those things point to that these eight are the way trust is built globally. And, and so but how I apply those eight. So as an example, I then I contextualize. So as an example, in parts of America, I better start with that contribution pillar, they want results right now, in parts of, let's say, Latin America, you better start with the connection pillar, or you're never going to get results. This does not mean by the way, because some Americans misjudge and they think well, then they don't want results they want results to they just be better start with connection. By the way, Americans attorneys don't want to connect and collaborate. They're human too. But you better start with results. So where I start might be contextualized. A little different. Furthermore, if I go down the eight pillar framework, how I apply it in a context, what we say two levels down might need to be contextualize all eight work around the world, we're going a little deeper than we might want to do. But let's try to stay with me. So these eight work globally, I can use them with any, you know, anything, but how I apply them. So let's take the compassion pillar, one level down. One way we show compassion in the workplace is listening. It turns out around the world, people feel cared about when they feel listened to doesn't matter who you are, what color skin you have, what context you're in, however, none of that second level down how I listen. In America, generally speaking, listening, by looking someone in the eye builds the most compassion that builds the most trust in a certain part of the Middle East, depending on who I am, and where I sit, I may build the most trust by not looking someone in the eye. Wow, listening, that shows compassion that builds trust. So that's where I'm thinking about it. You know, and I can, you know, just as long as you ask the context question, we can go a little, just a little bit different two ways. One, let's think about it even in context of role. So let's take clarity, okay, what's most important? Well, there's a lot of times clarity is important. But let's take the leader maybe that leader is not trusted, because they're not clear about the vision. Let's take the manager maybe that manager is not trusted, because they're not clear about the expectations. Now let's take the salesperson, the salesperson Wow, they're so clear about how cool they are, how long they've been in business and the history of their company. No one's buying because turns out they're not clear about the benefits of that product to me the potential by What about the classroom? This teacher? Oh, they're compassionate, they got the character pillar. They're amazing. Why do the kids hate the teacher? It turns out, we found out, they're not clear about the assignments. So the kids go home frustrated with it. In that case, it was asking under these pillars, what does this mean to me? What's clearly mean here, what's compassionate into. So I can even contextualize even in a, you know, a little bit of a more, you know, same nationality setting or whatever you want to say, right? So,
Shark 20:31
well, when you work with brands today, where do they sort identify to themselves whether or not they are trusted, because one of the things I saw recently was another most trusted brands globally survey. And one of the things I found was just fascinating was Google was again, ranked number one, and they had looked at Brazil, Canada, China, France, Germany, India, Spain, us a bunch of different countries. And Google, of all the companies leverages as much data, if not more, to figure out what you're doing and not doing as Facebook does. Facebook will never be back on that list ever again. And I was just fascinated to see all these different types of brands that when I think of it through a digital marketing perspective, it's just these are companies that are able to accumulate massive amounts of data, yet somehow, people are still able to trust in Google. And I don't know for whatever, whatever. There's a question there somewhere, but I just I find it fascinating that the most trusted brands globally in 2021, we're Google, PayPal, Microsoft, YouTube, Amazon, Sony, Adidas, Netflix, which I didn't even understand visa, Samsung, Nike, Nestle apparently are hot chocolates, you know, a trustworthy topic, MasterCard, Disney and Colgate. And while I get some of the ones that feel good, maybe a Disney, an SLA or Netflix, I was honestly shocked at visa and PayPal other than you trust them with your money. But Google and Amazon, I was just honestly kind of amazed to see them on there.
David Horshager 22:02
Well, I would like to see how the questions were asked. So in our world, we asked, we have, we have six ways we measure trust in an organization. And in a person, too, we have, we have an enterprise trust index for massive organizations, you know, big universities and companies, and we can close gaps there, all the way down to self assessments, Team assessment, customer assessment, and so forth. So if anybody wants to measure trust, that's, you know, I think we do it as well or better than anyone, but it's based on the framework. Now, the one thing we take into consideration is the character pillar. And that is because we believe it's a part of long term trust. So I don't know if they're measuring that or not, but as an example, people might trust. You know, the outliers generally, of of this pillar, are media or celebrities. So as an example, you might trust a certain golfer to hit the ball better than anybody else, but you wouldn't want him alone with your wife. Right? Because of the character, the character, you might trust the Kardashians or whatever to, in essence, not wear enough clothes almost right? Or you might interest certain people to be, because they're entertainers, that's what they're trusted for, but you wouldn't trust them with character things, high character things. So I'm not sure how those questions were asked, because you're gonna trust Google as probably the best search engine. But I may not trust them with certain things as an example, right? So so they you know, a little bit of this, it matters, how you define trust, and how you ask these questions. Because, you know, even that we interpret a little bit differently.
Shark 23:40
What does your research show you pre pandemic and post pandemic as it relates to trust, especially with leaders and brands? Because, you know, as much as we've discussed how employees have learned to deal with the pandemic, I don't think most leaders had a clue how to deal with it at all. And it's destroyed a lot of relationships. And that's not all their fault, because they're human too.
David Horshager 24:01
As far as post and pre there's so much here. Okay, so the, you know, institutional trust keeps tanking. So, in other words, you know, we're in in 19, you know, when before Nick Watergate 80% of Americans trusted our government to basically do what was right, you know, lat right before the pandemic was down to 7% or something. Now, it's like 3%, or something crazy, that trust the government, but all institutional trust almost as tanking. So, think of the institution of school. Now, that's going down. That's why people are getting into homeschooling charter schools more than ever before. You think at the institution of, of faith, the church. I mean, about the same number of people in America say they believe in God and yet the the number of the metrics for showing it giving going to a place of worship, that's down steeply. So that's one thing that's happening. There's a whole lot of other things we could jump on, but I'll give a couple things. Some things that have happened that You know, people are getting zoom, fatigued, and all these kind of things, but there are some positives. So as an example, one thing that teams have noticed when they've got in the virtual environment, introverts are more willing to share great ideas than they were, if they're in the boardroom or face to face training environment, just a, I was surprised, you know, it's like, Hey, we're getting more voices heard, because it seems like there's more equal ground sometimes in a virtual environment. Some other things that have happened is, in some cases, communication has gone up drastically because people have learned technology. So actually, clarity has gone up in certain spaces. And because of the use of technology, so I mean, there's a couple quick thoughts.
Shark 25:42
Yeah, well, I mean, I just I think there's a value in particular, and it's why people go to work for companies or stay with managers, there's a value for mid level and senior management, getting this kind of certification and knowing how to deal with trust to bridge that great divide that is created by communication brand babble, or just company screw ups, data breaches everything else in establishing that trust that you have one on one with your manager and things like that can make all the difference in the world,
David Horshager 26:12
people are longing for the connection pillar, exactly connection and collaboration. And it's, we have a really cool exercise that we do on our certified can can offer and it's called the truss shield, but it's just, it breaks down the walls. It connects people in a unique way. But but they're long. That's one thing I will say that exercise is getting used more than ever, through the pandemic time. So that that's definitely a truth that that. And people also saw that we actually at the core have always wanted to connect and collaborate, but it brought it to the forefront because some people were just kind of able to just focus on the results pillar, which is critical to by the way, but that the Connect contribution pillar, but it's like, oh, it works better if we can actually do it this way where we actually connect,
Shark 26:56
Talk a little bit about the trust Edge Certification, how does someone go about getting that and applying that in their business life or for their brand?
David Horshager 27:05
Yep. Well, we in trusted certification, we serve basically, two different avatars. One is we serve if you're in, you know, learning talent development in a company HR, you want to drive trust in your organization, we certify folks inside some of the biggest companies in the world to use our measurement tools, our training tools, our platform, we have this amazing community of people that you know, serve in a corporate organization and they want the best learning and development or leadership development tools, we've people have said this is the best leadership development they've ever had. The other types of people we serve are their consultants, their advisors, they're independent coaches that have an infinite coaching practice. And they want to use like they might be certified in something else, they want to use our tools, they want to be around an amazing community, they want to come to our annual event, but they want to ongoing be served with our tools so that they can apply this world class both research measurement tools and training tools, so they can use it if they want to. If they're coaching someone one on one, we have a coaching concepts guide, if they're if they want to do a full day executive retreat, we have it set they can use the trustees tools to do a full day or two day executive retreat, if they want to do you know take a team through a year program whether virtually or in person, we have trusted, simplified, they can do that. And then they can even measure and they they're around other amazing folks too. So the kind of the they have access to our community and then we have an annual event and we have just a whole lot of ways we serve them with you know, tools reinforcement for the long term not just kind of a one and done here's what you can do I mean ways to keep this going in an organization as well. So community flexibility I think we offer the most flexible approach of someone's IP as anybody we let them we give so much free rein in how they use it because our our heart is to make an impact with it if your listeners would like to see a free demo without you know anything else just email or I think trust edge right now trust edge coaching.com trusted partners.com or trust edge comm and go everywhere from there we have a way to see a free demo or reach out we'd love to show it to you if anybody's interested all no worry about anything well even I think give you a bunch of free stuff with that so
Shark 29:35
Well David I asked this of everyone who's been on the show. There are not a lot of sharks in the Minnesota neighborhood there are some small wins at the mall America see Odyssey aquarium Yeah, yeah, what is your you're on A Shark's Perspective. What is your favorite kind of shark and why?
David Horshager 29:50
Boy, I don't know diving.
Shark 29:52
What's that? You're a diver.
David Horshager 29:53
I love to dive. Well. And I don't say that because I really enjoyed being around the nurse sharks because I could get close and practically touch them. Right. So there's something about that. I think there's something about a big bull shark or blue that just like, Wow, it's so huge. It just takes your breath away. So I guess I'll just give those two shout outs quick.
Shark 30:17
Sounds good. Well, David, it's a special time of the show. Are you ready for the five most interesting and important questions that you're going to be asked today? Here we
David Horshager 30:24
go. All right. And these are not pre asked. Let me tell you, you don't you don't let anybody know. So I let me let me give you the first answer. So let's see. First answer cottage cheese.
Shark 30:35
Good. Good one, but one of the nastiest foods on the planet. So let's go with number one, trustworthy leaders, Lincoln or Washington.
David Horshager 30:46
That is fascinating. That is, I'll go today with George Washington over Lincoln. Because the willingness of people don't realize way back then the fierceness if anybody hasn't read the 5000 year leap. I mean, this this idea of his he could have become king. And he has sacrificed and just made it happen so that this really Republic this democracy would in effect start and it was it was on him and his own selfishness or not so I'll go with I'll go with Washington.
Shark 31:21
I have read that book is fascinating book and Washington also cut down the cherry tree and couldn't lie about it. So trustworthy. Alright, number two. This was another survey question. They'll ask you, which is where trustworthy, trustworthy actor or actress Tom Hanks, or Morgan Freeman.
David Horshager 31:41
I'll go with Freeman.
Shark 31:42
So I saw Tom Hanks is number one, and I thought it was just odd. It could be but I mean, Morgan Freeman has been God in multiple movies. Yeah. You gotta trust him.
David Horshager 31:53
Exactly. Morgan Freeman over Tom Hanks. Here we go. I'll put it down
Shark 31:57
and put it down. Number three, Pinocchio or Geppetto.
David Horshager 32:06
I'm going to get buzzed out on this one. I don't have a fave.
Shark 32:09
Well, I mean, Pinocchio lied but he did. You know, he had a good heart and he came back came around. Yeah. Alright. Number four. Which is more trustworthy. Government or TV news?
David Horshager 32:25
Oh, my goodness.
Shark 32:28
Not even a political statement.
David Horshager 32:29
Yes, I hear you. So here's the problem. When you when we say government, we have to say, you know, local school boards, that's the closest government to our basically to to each of us. In essence, that's, that's, that's
Shark 32:44
alright. Let's make this tougher federal government or Facebook.
David Horshager 32:53
What was the first one? What was the first though you said
Shark 32:55
government or TV news?
David Horshager 32:57
Yeah. I mean, it also, here's what I'll say about this, that'll maybe not be a mic drop, but I will give it what I got. And that is this. People are a function of where they get their information. So the problem with either of those is, if I find someone that just believes what I want to believe they can just fanned the flame. And media does it and government does it. And this, here's the problem. The problem is we we almost we can even try to find another voice and have a hard time getting it because of our sphere of influence. Because we're so much it's so much easier, and in fact more fun to be around people that are nodding when we talk instead of someone who's disagreeing all the time, unless you love that kind of thing. And the other thing is so I'll say this about government because I'll give a shout out here quickly. I'm you know, I like to look for where is trust being built for the greater good. There. This is not a perfect group at all, but their heart when when I'm when Governor Huntsman from Utah, and goodness who ran for vice president with McCain Oh, paling No, the independent. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. No. Well,
Shark 34:20
yeah, the Connecticut
David Horshager 34:21
Yes. They they basically became a part of this movement. And now it basically there's, there's 40 REP. Representatives, and Senators, 20, Republicans, 20 Democrats, they're not the ones you see on the news that are rapidly over to the right or left. They're ones that actually want to get it come together and get something done. And so there are people when I say governments, like we all focus so much on we say all governments bad. There are actually believe it or not, and I've been there people actually got into it because they wanted to make positive change and work together. But we don't hear from them. Yeah. Joe Lieberman to where we're trying to think. Yeah. Joe Lieberman, right. And but if we had had Washington Lincoln today, somehow they would have ended up as political pundits on either CNN or Fox and then they would have called the other one an idiot. So just it's an erosion of trust that I wish would go away. All right, number five. Well, here's another problem. We can talk about this on the next show, but it is this. There's in many ways, this is the sadness. It's with great sadness that I say this. But we are continually and at multiplying speeds. I'm incentivizing a lack of trust. Yes. So we're incentivizing a lack of trust in media, because it gets you get paid more. If you get people against you. That's the best way ever, you get you get eyeballs. And in fact, we're unfortunately incentivizing a lack of trust in government. So if we don't, I mean, I don't want to put myself on any side. But if we don't go to toward term limits, if we don't start saying, You're not gonna pull me off a committee, if I speak to someone from the other side, I mean, we got big problems on either side, by the way, and both sides do it.
Shark 36:08
Agreed. Alright, number five. And the most interesting and important question that you're gonna be asked today is biscuits or cornbread.
David Horshager 36:17
Wow, that is, oh, that's a tough one. I'm gonna go with biscuits today. Good, man. Good, man. I can put honey and butter on either one of them be happy, though.
Shark 36:28
That's good point. But gravy wouldn't taste so great. And gravy on the line. You
David Horshager 36:31
got way more options with biscuits?
Shark 36:33
Yeah, but chili doesn't taste good on biscuits. So there you go. So, David, where can people find out more about you some trustworthy sources, including about the certification and get a copy of the book and more?
David Horshager 36:44
Sure, the newest book is called trusted leader. Not the trusted leader, just trusted leader. But trust edge calm, you can go everywhere trust as WWW dot trust Edie ge.com. Davidhorsager.com, if you can spell that you can get there. And, you know, those would be places to get going. And yeah, I invite you all to anybody interested at all to become part of the community get certified and just at least have a demo on what that would be like.
Shark 37:13
Awesome. Thank you so much, David, for being with us today on A Shark's Perspective.
Shark 37:17
Thank you.
Shark 37:23
So there was my conversation with David Horsager, the CEO of the trust edge Leadership Institute, a global authority on helping leaders in organizations become the most trusted in their industry, a keynote speaker and the author of trusted leader, eight pillars that drive results.
Shark 37:38
Let's take a look at three key takeaways from our conversation with him.
Shark 37:42
First, love, love, love the subject, David's belief, and you'd be hard pressed to convince me otherwise as well is that a lack of trust is the biggest cost of an organization. And that can be defined in so many ways. But he points out that it's not a leadership issue. It's not a sales issue or communications. Trust is the root issue. And in an age where we're running very short of it, trust matters. Now more than ever, and I've said on so many episodes of the show. And in so many of my own presentations on stage, we've spent too much time on like in No, but not nearly enough on trust. Honestly, this is the one that I've struggled with the most, and I work on the hardest every day.
Shark 38:21
Second, is he further points out trust is more complex than it sounds. It's not just a quick fix. And it's not just an academic phrase that many people are going to discount. He breaks it down to these eight pillars of trust, clarity, compassion, character, competency, commitment, connection, contribution and consistency. makes for some pretty strong pillars that we hope won't erode or break.
Shark 38:45
Third, I mentioned a survey with most trusted brands. Some of the results I called BS. And we see these all the time. But be careful about brand surveys, especially as David points out as to how the questions are asked. I mean, are you really going to tell me that most people trust Google with their data trusted to give a great search result? Sure, with data that they sell to other brands, or any similar type company, maybe better than Facebook or Amazon? But come on, David said, it simply matters how you define trust, and how you ask these questions. Because even that we interpret a little bit differently. Very true. So here's a sample question on a brand that I will admit I love. Would you trust brands in that survey like Google and Microsoft and Netflix more than say, trusting St. Jude Children's Hospital? Seriously? It matters how we define trust.
Shark 39:36
Got a question? Send me an email to Kenneth at a shark's perspective dot com.
Shark 39:40
Thank you again for the privilege of your time. And I'm so thankful to everyone who listens.
Shark 39:45
Thank you to the amazing sponsors Invoca and Drips.
Shark 39:48
Please consider writing a review and letting me know your thoughts on the show.
Shark 39:52
I do not in any way discount this whatsoever. Thank you for trusting me with your time. It sincerely means so much and please join us on the next episode of A Shark's Perspective.
[music]
Transcription
****Please forgive any and all transcription errors as this was transcribed by Otter.ai.****
[intro music]
Shark 0:16
Welcome back and thank you for joining A Shark's Perspective. I am Kenneth "Shark" Kinney, your host and Chief Shark Officer.
Shark 0:23
Let me tell you about two amazing sponsors who make this show possible.
Shark 0:26
Let's talk first about inbound. From marketing to sales and commerce to CX, Invoca's active conversation intelligence platform enables revenue teams to create better buying experiences, drive more leads, and increase revenue. Trusted by top brands like DISH Network, Mayo Clinic, Mutual of Omaha, and ADT, the Invoca team is doing some amazing work in turning conversational data into automated action to enhance digital touchpoints and human interaction.
Shark 0:51
Next, let's talk about outbound. I hope that you'll take a look at Drips, the founders of conversational texting where they use conversational AI to help you reach customers where they're most responsive, and that's on their phones. And working with major brands like Three Day Blinds, Liberty Mutual, Credit Repair, and Gainesco, Drips is leading the way for some of the biggest brands in the world to improve engagement rates and outcomes for their prospects and customers.
Shark 1:16
And now back to the show.
Shark 1:18
What does trust mean to you? What holds a lot of brands back from being considered trustworthy is complex. It's often inconsistency. But corporate and personal brands all over the world can contextualize this differently, even though trust means so much to us as humans, often in the same way across the globe. It may just be the way we approach trust and how we apply it. So I ask again, what does trust mean to you?
Shark 1:44
David Horsager is the CEO of the Trust Edge Leadership Institute, a global authority on helping leaders and organizations become the most trusted in their industry, a keynote speaker and the author of "Trusted Leader: Eight Pillars That Drive Results."
Shark 1:57
And on this episode, we'll discuss the trusted leaders, the eight pillars of trust, and they all start with C, root causes, consistency of a brand, measuring and contextualizing trust all over the world, a survey of most trusted brands, trust in a pandemic, hot chocolate trust, confusing Minnesota with Wisconsin, Chick-fil-A versus the DMV, the trust a guy that chopped down a cherry tree, and a lot, lot more.
Shark 2:20
So let's tune in to a trusted CEO with what is obviously a trustworthy shark on this episode of A Shark's Perspective.
Shark 2:33
David, thank you so much for joining us today on the sharks perspective, if you would tell us a little bit about your background, your career to date.
David Horshager 2:40
Kenneth, thanks so much. Hey, I go back. I was director I was on staff and then Director of Youth and Family organization out of college. Then I started my first company in 1999, Lisa and I did no kids yet. And we we we thought if we could make 700 bucks a month, we could keep our urgent bills out of the way. And I remember I started that business was one $500 invoice or that I could send out and so we moved back to Minnesota after direct mail organization Arkansas, and I lived in the basement of 86 year old Clara Miller's with by that October we had $1.42 Our name no bathroom, kitchen or windows in that basement, we'd go upstairs and share hers. We lived there for two years. So it kept expenses low. But little by little we can I was asked to speak on some of the leadership curriculum I had created down at that organization started more in the Youth World. And then my grad work in the early and mid 2000s became very interesting, important around trust. And that was you know, almost two decades ago, that people much more important and interesting than me thought and that was very monumental. In all this trust work we do. Fast forward. You know, I've written three, you know, bestselling books on it, we do an ongoing piece of research every year biggest study, maybe at least out in North America on trust and leadership we do. We measure trust with us everything we speak, I speak, you know, 100 times a year on trust or more, I guess last turn COVID out of studio and we do training workshops. We do equipping where we certify others in our in our trust work. And basically we're just trying to develop trust leaders and organizations around the world. And it really in the last little over a decade. It really the first decade was challenging, more challenging and the research happening grad work. The second half, you know, second decade now, you know, work with everything from pro sports teams to global governments and corruption issues to the biggest companies in the world on trust issues. And and yeah,
Shark 4:40
So you're in Wisconsin now. What are you doing in Arkansas?
David Horshager 4:43
I'm in Minnesota, which is different than Wisconsin?
Shark 4:45
Why did I say that? I meant well,
David Horshager 4:47
I'll tell you what, I can almost throw a rock to it. But I'm on the Wisconsin side of Minnesota. But um, yeah, so I was director of basically the the year round program. that comes out of the biggest Christian sports camp in the country. So I'm I was director of K life, which is, it stands for kids life, which is a little deceptive because it was really older, like I was focused on college age, high school, you know, and so forth. And so I was speaking a couple times a week, then two, and I'd built some orientation for these leadership curriculum for these kind of college leaders and stuff. And, and so that was a that was a start, and it's faith based organization that was nondenominational. I loved it had a great board learned a ton about leadership early on, for a number of reasons there. What city I was based, first of all, Branson, Missouri, and then Harrison Arkansas,
Shark 5:46
I know them both.
David Horshager 5:47
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Shark 5:48
Much warmer summers.
David Horshager 5:50
Yeah. Hot.
Shark 5:51
Well, yeah, very hot. So David, what does trust mean to you?
David Horshager 5:57
Well, I mean, you know, I can get academic quickly after now, I haven't been a professor and haven't studied it. So research base, but I mean, in a simple way it man, it means everything, it whether it's with my wife, my kids, my, my organization, I mean, it really, I believe, a lack of trust. And the research proves this. But I believe in my heart, too. A lack of trust really is the biggest cost of an organization. I believe the question everybody's asking about you, Kenneth about me, whether it's your spouse, partner, friends, or clients and customers is not Do I like you? I mean, I've got friends that like a lot, right? I wouldn't go into business with them in a million years. Because I don't trust them. It's, it's Can I trust you. And that's where the, you know, with the board work I do. The biggest the biggest job of a board is to, is to mitigate risks around trust, I believe losing trust, I believe, you know, I think one thing now and this gets shown in my newest book, trusted leader that just came out, but it is a core, it's not just, it's just not rote thinking from research, it is the root issues as a trust issue. It's not a as an example, a leadership issue. The reason I follow leader not stressed, it's not a sales issue. The reason I buy or not has something to do trust, it's not a learning issue. The reason I any kid learns anything in a classroom is the trust of the content, the teacher, or the trust, or psychological safety of the room. It's not, you know, basically only goes up when people trust each other than they share ideas. And, you know, the biggest Harvard study shows diversity as a problem. Diversity on its own tends to pit people against each other. Unless we increase trust, the only way to get the benefits of diversity, inclusion, equity, belonging is increased trust or even marketing, there's only one way to increase some, you know, amplify a marketing message, you get increased trust in the message. So that became, you know, now you can see, oh, I can see that real quickly. I bet that's just a line. Well, it's not a line, it's a heart core issue for me that it is trust matters more than ever, but it always mattered. But it really is the real core issue, not communication, or leadership, or, you know, these kind of things. So that that's part of it.
Shark 7:57
Well, one of my favorite slides in almost every presentation I do is is some dumb picture I got from somewhere because there was only there were only so many trust pictures, you can come up, you know, you can find and it was some wooden blocks that formed the word Trust, because I hear everybody talking about like, know, and trust all day long. And all they focus on is like and no. But when you throw the word Trust in there, it doesn't resonate with people, they don't understand what it means. But it makes or breaks as you just say, makes or breaks every relationship you've got with anybody you work for buy from work with, it can make or break everything.
David Horshager 8:34
And it might I might add, it's more complex than people think. So even I thought I know what all about your Oh, it's just, you know, integrity, or it's just character just, it's it's not. It's more complex. It's like, I think, as an example, some people that are you trust is transparency or vulnerability. It's just transparency. Now that can be really important and good. There's a lot of data around that problem is some of your kids are so transparent on social media, I don't trust them for a second, because confidentiality is also trusted. So there's it's just, it's a little even this though it's this root issue. It's not just oh, it takes a long time to build trust, in a moment of crisis trust is built like that. It's not if I extend more trust in my team, I'll get more out of them. Oh, until I extend too much. So some of these traits are simple phrases people think trust is it's not a full enough view of this concept of trust that actually does affect everything more than anything, whether it's in business or personally.
Shark 9:28
So let's talk about your new book that came out in 2021. Right as the pandemic was starting to wind down whatever that is, that may be a nebulous date from here on out but trusted leader eight pillars that drive results. What was the inspiration for that book and tell us a little bit more?
David Horshager 9:44
Yeah, a couple things about that trust edge which is still selling and is evergreen, is you just kind of you know 300 Some pages it's got some of the research and it's relevant, usable, but and then daily edge was simple, actionable tools. trusted leader one We've learned a lot in the decades since trust edge was built, or written. And two people want something simpler and quicker to apply. So the first half of of trusted leader is this great parable, business parable that shifts thinking about trust. So people see how it matters more than ever. So they see, oh, trust is the root issue. And they, they kind of have this epiphany board work room experience tied with this, this this story of this entrepreneur, and who could have lost everything and ends up, you know, basically saving the place based on this shift of thinking around trust, which, in fact, you know, is based on a true story of some organizations I worked with, so that seeing Trust, the root issue, I kept seeing two probably problems before this book, one, they don't see Trust, the root issue, people don't. And number two, it's something people either they think they have it or they don't, when, in fact, you can actively build it every day. And so that the first half of the book kind of shifts thinking the second half of the book is then a quick look at the eight pillar framework, and ways that people can build those pillars starting tomorrow morning. So some quick takeaways, the, you know, the way I lost 52 pounds in five and a half months, it's in the book the way we've had people say to us this one idea, they tripled sales in 90 days, that's in the book, the way people you know, kind of built these, this eight pillar framework, which is why you know, the eight that I believe trust is built on. There's takeaways that are quicker and more usable, you know, tomorrow morning,
Shark 11:29
and they all had to start with C, which was...
David Horshager 11:33
Yeah, they start with C, but let's be clear here, because that can really come across quickly as some cheesy motivational book, they represent each of those eight represent a research funnel, you know, or a meeting. So I mean, I can whip through them really quickly. So people understand, okay,
Shark 11:48
Clarity, compassion, character, competency, commitment, connection, contribution, and consistency,
David Horshager 11:53
Right. So I believe you can solve every organizational leadership issue against these eight, when you language it against these eight, this doesn't mean I'm perfect. That doesn't mean we don't contextualize for work around the world. But we think about it clarity, okay, people trust, the clear, and the mistrust, or distrust the ambiguous or the overly complex, we find both problems as you know, people over complexified compassion, people trust those that, you know, feel, you know, that you care beyond they care beyond themselves, I have a hard time following or being accountable to someone I don't believe cares, beyond you know, they don't care about me, they care about something missionally beyond beyond this character, we kind of flesh that out. It's not just integrity, it's this it anyway, it's really critical. And, and once again, sometimes people think, believe in a false psychology that you, you have all the character you're going to have by 12 years old, it's not true. We're moving toward or away from character every day. So you know, in fact, in our incentive programs up here in Minnesota big bank was incentivizing a lack of character in the last billions, right? So competency, this is why I might trust Kenneth, and that, you know, take my kids to the ballgame, but not give me a root canal because of competency. You got to be you know, competent, the way you're going to be trusted and commitment, and, and the next one's connection to build, connect and collaborate the next one's contribution, contribution. By the way, the number one word that came out of that research funnel was contribute results, performance outcomes, you can't just have compassion character and not contribute the results expected or asked for. And then you have consistency. And that's the queen and king of the pillars. I mean, whatever you do, consistently, I'll trust, right? If you're late all the time, I will trust you to be late. So so that, you know, that's a quick, this is a, you know, a whole life's work of a couple of decades, and I can go in to any of these eight pillars for at least a full day. But there's a overview of the eight.
Shark 13:43
Yeah, well, I mean, it's fascinating, because there are a lot of speakers who are known for one specific topic, but because you provide so much research around your own topic, it's hard not to trust your trust topic. So what do you find that generally holds brands back from being considered trustworthy?
David Horshager 14:05
Well, I mean, that's, that's a big question. You could go through any of the pillars. But you know, commonly, they are not consistent, a brand's consistent, a brand is built on consistent just like an individual's built on reputation. I mean, a reputation excuse, excuse me, is built on consistency, whatever I do, I said it before, if I'm late all the time, I will trust you to be late. So whatever you do consistently, however, there's actually lower trust if you're late, sometimes on time, sometimes this way sometimes all over the place. It's like I can't trust you right? And that's the same as the brand if I go and I see oh, the go to this bank, and the loan officers amazing but the front the teller is terrible. And then the paper is like look glossy and really cool to understand. Then I go to the web portal. It's terrible use that inconsistently, just lost their brand. So one thing that kills brands is inconsistency in in touch. If I go to sustain with franchises, I mean, it Does not matter where I go, if I go to Chick fil A, they're gonna stay My pleasure, right? They're gonna the lions gonna go faster? Don't we wish the DMV would learn from Chick fil A I mean, they know how to do certain things. Um, they're the same whatever people believe politically or not, it's just, they there's consistency certain places. On the other hand, franchises that don't have consistency, they lost and it's, you know, any organization, but that that's a way to build a brand or not as be consistent. You know, in whatever way, you know, inexperience basically.
Shark 15:34
Well, if I could just get a sweet tea and a chicken sandwich at the DMV, I would get a new license every every week, you'll stand in line for that. Exactly. Well, you work with a myriad of global brands, how much does trust also alter? Across the world? The way you look? You know, your worldview of trust, if you will, is much different than someone that's in Nigeria or Brazil or England? How do you sort of establish that framework that's racist? And as well,
David Horshager 16:05
in one way, I'll tell you this Are human all around the world, it turns out, so I have a friend that that, that, you know, he's a, he's a wealth, basically manager for just kind of like these wealthy families to the next generation or whatever. And he said, Everybody comes to me. And they think they're totally unique. And, oh, our family's different, oh, our wealth problems are different o r, and they're all the same, almost always. But he listens, and he loves them, right. And in a way, that's the same about trust. So that in a way, whether I'm dealing with corruption issues in East Africa, or I'm dealing with some issue with the New York Yankees, or whether I'm dealing with a business issue at FedEx, or whatever, they're in many ways the same, because because they include one commonality, and that's humans. Okay. Now, that does not mean we don't contextualize. So here's what we found from our framework, we found number one, overall, a lack of trust is so still the biggest cost, whether you're a nonprofit, or for profit, a person doesn't matter, marketer whatever, around the world, that it and absolutely trust is the leading indicator around the world, every organization. The eight pillars actually also are from our both experience, our our research, Global Studies, our you know, and we have certified coaches on on six continents. So all those things point to that these eight are the way trust is built globally. And, and so but how I apply those eight. So as an example, I then I contextualize. So as an example, in parts of America, I better start with that contribution pillar, they want results right now, in parts of, let's say, Latin America, you better start with the connection pillar, or you're never going to get results. This does not mean by the way, because some Americans misjudge and they think well, then they don't want results they want results to they just be better start with connection. By the way, Americans attorneys don't want to connect and collaborate. They're human too. But you better start with results. So where I start might be contextualized. A little different. Furthermore, if I go down the eight pillar framework, how I apply it in a context, what we say two levels down might need to be contextualize all eight work around the world, we're going a little deeper than we might want to do. But let's try to stay with me. So these eight work globally, I can use them with any, you know, anything, but how I apply them. So let's take the compassion pillar, one level down. One way we show compassion in the workplace is listening. It turns out around the world, people feel cared about when they feel listened to doesn't matter who you are, what color skin you have, what context you're in, however, none of that second level down how I listen. In America, generally speaking, listening, by looking someone in the eye builds the most compassion that builds the most trust in a certain part of the Middle East, depending on who I am, and where I sit, I may build the most trust by not looking someone in the eye. Wow, listening, that shows compassion that builds trust. So that's where I'm thinking about it. You know, and I can, you know, just as long as you ask the context question, we can go a little, just a little bit different two ways. One, let's think about it even in context of role. So let's take clarity, okay, what's most important? Well, there's a lot of times clarity is important. But let's take the leader maybe that leader is not trusted, because they're not clear about the vision. Let's take the manager maybe that manager is not trusted, because they're not clear about the expectations. Now let's take the salesperson, the salesperson Wow, they're so clear about how cool they are, how long they've been in business and the history of their company. No one's buying because turns out they're not clear about the benefits of that product to me the potential by What about the classroom? This teacher? Oh, they're compassionate, they got the character pillar. They're amazing. Why do the kids hate the teacher? It turns out, we found out, they're not clear about the assignments. So the kids go home frustrated with it. In that case, it was asking under these pillars, what does this mean to me? What's clearly mean here, what's compassionate into. So I can even contextualize even in a, you know, a little bit of a more, you know, same nationality setting or whatever you want to say, right? So,
Shark 20:31
well, when you work with brands today, where do they sort identify to themselves whether or not they are trusted, because one of the things I saw recently was another most trusted brands globally survey. And one of the things I found was just fascinating was Google was again, ranked number one, and they had looked at Brazil, Canada, China, France, Germany, India, Spain, us a bunch of different countries. And Google, of all the companies leverages as much data, if not more, to figure out what you're doing and not doing as Facebook does. Facebook will never be back on that list ever again. And I was just fascinated to see all these different types of brands that when I think of it through a digital marketing perspective, it's just these are companies that are able to accumulate massive amounts of data, yet somehow, people are still able to trust in Google. And I don't know for whatever, whatever. There's a question there somewhere, but I just I find it fascinating that the most trusted brands globally in 2021, we're Google, PayPal, Microsoft, YouTube, Amazon, Sony, Adidas, Netflix, which I didn't even understand visa, Samsung, Nike, Nestle apparently are hot chocolates, you know, a trustworthy topic, MasterCard, Disney and Colgate. And while I get some of the ones that feel good, maybe a Disney, an SLA or Netflix, I was honestly shocked at visa and PayPal other than you trust them with your money. But Google and Amazon, I was just honestly kind of amazed to see them on there.
David Horshager 22:02
Well, I would like to see how the questions were asked. So in our world, we asked, we have, we have six ways we measure trust in an organization. And in a person, too, we have, we have an enterprise trust index for massive organizations, you know, big universities and companies, and we can close gaps there, all the way down to self assessments, Team assessment, customer assessment, and so forth. So if anybody wants to measure trust, that's, you know, I think we do it as well or better than anyone, but it's based on the framework. Now, the one thing we take into consideration is the character pillar. And that is because we believe it's a part of long term trust. So I don't know if they're measuring that or not, but as an example, people might trust. You know, the outliers generally, of of this pillar, are media or celebrities. So as an example, you might trust a certain golfer to hit the ball better than anybody else, but you wouldn't want him alone with your wife. Right? Because of the character, the character, you might trust the Kardashians or whatever to, in essence, not wear enough clothes almost right? Or you might interest certain people to be, because they're entertainers, that's what they're trusted for, but you wouldn't trust them with character things, high character things. So I'm not sure how those questions were asked, because you're gonna trust Google as probably the best search engine. But I may not trust them with certain things as an example, right? So so they you know, a little bit of this, it matters, how you define trust, and how you ask these questions. Because, you know, even that we interpret a little bit differently.
Shark 23:40
What does your research show you pre pandemic and post pandemic as it relates to trust, especially with leaders and brands? Because, you know, as much as we've discussed how employees have learned to deal with the pandemic, I don't think most leaders had a clue how to deal with it at all. And it's destroyed a lot of relationships. And that's not all their fault, because they're human too.
David Horshager 24:01
As far as post and pre there's so much here. Okay, so the, you know, institutional trust keeps tanking. So, in other words, you know, we're in in 19, you know, when before Nick Watergate 80% of Americans trusted our government to basically do what was right, you know, lat right before the pandemic was down to 7% or something. Now, it's like 3%, or something crazy, that trust the government, but all institutional trust almost as tanking. So, think of the institution of school. Now, that's going down. That's why people are getting into homeschooling charter schools more than ever before. You think at the institution of, of faith, the church. I mean, about the same number of people in America say they believe in God and yet the the number of the metrics for showing it giving going to a place of worship, that's down steeply. So that's one thing that's happening. There's a whole lot of other things we could jump on, but I'll give a couple things. Some things that have happened that You know, people are getting zoom, fatigued, and all these kind of things, but there are some positives. So as an example, one thing that teams have noticed when they've got in the virtual environment, introverts are more willing to share great ideas than they were, if they're in the boardroom or face to face training environment, just a, I was surprised, you know, it's like, Hey, we're getting more voices heard, because it seems like there's more equal ground sometimes in a virtual environment. Some other things that have happened is, in some cases, communication has gone up drastically because people have learned technology. So actually, clarity has gone up in certain spaces. And because of the use of technology, so I mean, there's a couple quick thoughts.
Shark 25:42
Yeah, well, I mean, I just I think there's a value in particular, and it's why people go to work for companies or stay with managers, there's a value for mid level and senior management, getting this kind of certification and knowing how to deal with trust to bridge that great divide that is created by communication brand babble, or just company screw ups, data breaches everything else in establishing that trust that you have one on one with your manager and things like that can make all the difference in the world,
David Horshager 26:12
people are longing for the connection pillar, exactly connection and collaboration. And it's, we have a really cool exercise that we do on our certified can can offer and it's called the truss shield, but it's just, it breaks down the walls. It connects people in a unique way. But but they're long. That's one thing I will say that exercise is getting used more than ever, through the pandemic time. So that that's definitely a truth that that. And people also saw that we actually at the core have always wanted to connect and collaborate, but it brought it to the forefront because some people were just kind of able to just focus on the results pillar, which is critical to by the way, but that the Connect contribution pillar, but it's like, oh, it works better if we can actually do it this way where we actually connect,
Shark 26:56
Talk a little bit about the trust Edge Certification, how does someone go about getting that and applying that in their business life or for their brand?
David Horshager 27:05
Yep. Well, we in trusted certification, we serve basically, two different avatars. One is we serve if you're in, you know, learning talent development in a company HR, you want to drive trust in your organization, we certify folks inside some of the biggest companies in the world to use our measurement tools, our training tools, our platform, we have this amazing community of people that you know, serve in a corporate organization and they want the best learning and development or leadership development tools, we've people have said this is the best leadership development they've ever had. The other types of people we serve are their consultants, their advisors, they're independent coaches that have an infinite coaching practice. And they want to use like they might be certified in something else, they want to use our tools, they want to be around an amazing community, they want to come to our annual event, but they want to ongoing be served with our tools so that they can apply this world class both research measurement tools and training tools, so they can use it if they want to. If they're coaching someone one on one, we have a coaching concepts guide, if they're if they want to do a full day executive retreat, we have it set they can use the trustees tools to do a full day or two day executive retreat, if they want to do you know take a team through a year program whether virtually or in person, we have trusted, simplified, they can do that. And then they can even measure and they they're around other amazing folks too. So the kind of the they have access to our community and then we have an annual event and we have just a whole lot of ways we serve them with you know, tools reinforcement for the long term not just kind of a one and done here's what you can do I mean ways to keep this going in an organization as well. So community flexibility I think we offer the most flexible approach of someone's IP as anybody we let them we give so much free rein in how they use it because our our heart is to make an impact with it if your listeners would like to see a free demo without you know anything else just email or I think trust edge right now trust edge coaching.com trusted partners.com or trust edge comm and go everywhere from there we have a way to see a free demo or reach out we'd love to show it to you if anybody's interested all no worry about anything well even I think give you a bunch of free stuff with that so
Shark 29:35
Well David I asked this of everyone who's been on the show. There are not a lot of sharks in the Minnesota neighborhood there are some small wins at the mall America see Odyssey aquarium Yeah, yeah, what is your you're on A Shark's Perspective. What is your favorite kind of shark and why?
David Horshager 29:50
Boy, I don't know diving.
Shark 29:52
What's that? You're a diver.
David Horshager 29:53
I love to dive. Well. And I don't say that because I really enjoyed being around the nurse sharks because I could get close and practically touch them. Right. So there's something about that. I think there's something about a big bull shark or blue that just like, Wow, it's so huge. It just takes your breath away. So I guess I'll just give those two shout outs quick.
Shark 30:17
Sounds good. Well, David, it's a special time of the show. Are you ready for the five most interesting and important questions that you're going to be asked today? Here we
David Horshager 30:24
go. All right. And these are not pre asked. Let me tell you, you don't you don't let anybody know. So I let me let me give you the first answer. So let's see. First answer cottage cheese.
Shark 30:35
Good. Good one, but one of the nastiest foods on the planet. So let's go with number one, trustworthy leaders, Lincoln or Washington.
David Horshager 30:46
That is fascinating. That is, I'll go today with George Washington over Lincoln. Because the willingness of people don't realize way back then the fierceness if anybody hasn't read the 5000 year leap. I mean, this this idea of his he could have become king. And he has sacrificed and just made it happen so that this really Republic this democracy would in effect start and it was it was on him and his own selfishness or not so I'll go with I'll go with Washington.
Shark 31:21
I have read that book is fascinating book and Washington also cut down the cherry tree and couldn't lie about it. So trustworthy. Alright, number two. This was another survey question. They'll ask you, which is where trustworthy, trustworthy actor or actress Tom Hanks, or Morgan Freeman.
David Horshager 31:41
I'll go with Freeman.
Shark 31:42
So I saw Tom Hanks is number one, and I thought it was just odd. It could be but I mean, Morgan Freeman has been God in multiple movies. Yeah. You gotta trust him.
David Horshager 31:53
Exactly. Morgan Freeman over Tom Hanks. Here we go. I'll put it down
Shark 31:57
and put it down. Number three, Pinocchio or Geppetto.
David Horshager 32:06
I'm going to get buzzed out on this one. I don't have a fave.
Shark 32:09
Well, I mean, Pinocchio lied but he did. You know, he had a good heart and he came back came around. Yeah. Alright. Number four. Which is more trustworthy. Government or TV news?
David Horshager 32:25
Oh, my goodness.
Shark 32:28
Not even a political statement.
David Horshager 32:29
Yes, I hear you. So here's the problem. When you when we say government, we have to say, you know, local school boards, that's the closest government to our basically to to each of us. In essence, that's, that's, that's
Shark 32:44
alright. Let's make this tougher federal government or Facebook.
David Horshager 32:53
What was the first one? What was the first though you said
Shark 32:55
government or TV news?
David Horshager 32:57
Yeah. I mean, it also, here's what I'll say about this, that'll maybe not be a mic drop, but I will give it what I got. And that is this. People are a function of where they get their information. So the problem with either of those is, if I find someone that just believes what I want to believe they can just fanned the flame. And media does it and government does it. And this, here's the problem. The problem is we we almost we can even try to find another voice and have a hard time getting it because of our sphere of influence. Because we're so much it's so much easier, and in fact more fun to be around people that are nodding when we talk instead of someone who's disagreeing all the time, unless you love that kind of thing. And the other thing is so I'll say this about government because I'll give a shout out here quickly. I'm you know, I like to look for where is trust being built for the greater good. There. This is not a perfect group at all, but their heart when when I'm when Governor Huntsman from Utah, and goodness who ran for vice president with McCain Oh, paling No, the independent. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. No. Well,
Shark 34:20
yeah, the Connecticut
David Horshager 34:21
Yes. They they basically became a part of this movement. And now it basically there's, there's 40 REP. Representatives, and Senators, 20, Republicans, 20 Democrats, they're not the ones you see on the news that are rapidly over to the right or left. They're ones that actually want to get it come together and get something done. And so there are people when I say governments, like we all focus so much on we say all governments bad. There are actually believe it or not, and I've been there people actually got into it because they wanted to make positive change and work together. But we don't hear from them. Yeah. Joe Lieberman to where we're trying to think. Yeah. Joe Lieberman, right. And but if we had had Washington Lincoln today, somehow they would have ended up as political pundits on either CNN or Fox and then they would have called the other one an idiot. So just it's an erosion of trust that I wish would go away. All right, number five. Well, here's another problem. We can talk about this on the next show, but it is this. There's in many ways, this is the sadness. It's with great sadness that I say this. But we are continually and at multiplying speeds. I'm incentivizing a lack of trust. Yes. So we're incentivizing a lack of trust in media, because it gets you get paid more. If you get people against you. That's the best way ever, you get you get eyeballs. And in fact, we're unfortunately incentivizing a lack of trust in government. So if we don't, I mean, I don't want to put myself on any side. But if we don't go to toward term limits, if we don't start saying, You're not gonna pull me off a committee, if I speak to someone from the other side, I mean, we got big problems on either side, by the way, and both sides do it.
Shark 36:08
Agreed. Alright, number five. And the most interesting and important question that you're gonna be asked today is biscuits or cornbread.
David Horshager 36:17
Wow, that is, oh, that's a tough one. I'm gonna go with biscuits today. Good, man. Good, man. I can put honey and butter on either one of them be happy, though.
Shark 36:28
That's good point. But gravy wouldn't taste so great. And gravy on the line. You
David Horshager 36:31
got way more options with biscuits?
Shark 36:33
Yeah, but chili doesn't taste good on biscuits. So there you go. So, David, where can people find out more about you some trustworthy sources, including about the certification and get a copy of the book and more?
David Horshager 36:44
Sure, the newest book is called trusted leader. Not the trusted leader, just trusted leader. But trust edge calm, you can go everywhere trust as WWW dot trust Edie ge.com. Davidhorsager.com, if you can spell that you can get there. And, you know, those would be places to get going. And yeah, I invite you all to anybody interested at all to become part of the community get certified and just at least have a demo on what that would be like.
Shark 37:13
Awesome. Thank you so much, David, for being with us today on A Shark's Perspective.
Shark 37:17
Thank you.
Shark 37:23
So there was my conversation with David Horsager, the CEO of the trust edge Leadership Institute, a global authority on helping leaders in organizations become the most trusted in their industry, a keynote speaker and the author of trusted leader, eight pillars that drive results.
Shark 37:38
Let's take a look at three key takeaways from our conversation with him.
Shark 37:42
First, love, love, love the subject, David's belief, and you'd be hard pressed to convince me otherwise as well is that a lack of trust is the biggest cost of an organization. And that can be defined in so many ways. But he points out that it's not a leadership issue. It's not a sales issue or communications. Trust is the root issue. And in an age where we're running very short of it, trust matters. Now more than ever, and I've said on so many episodes of the show. And in so many of my own presentations on stage, we've spent too much time on like in No, but not nearly enough on trust. Honestly, this is the one that I've struggled with the most, and I work on the hardest every day.
Shark 38:21
Second, is he further points out trust is more complex than it sounds. It's not just a quick fix. And it's not just an academic phrase that many people are going to discount. He breaks it down to these eight pillars of trust, clarity, compassion, character, competency, commitment, connection, contribution and consistency. makes for some pretty strong pillars that we hope won't erode or break.
Shark 38:45
Third, I mentioned a survey with most trusted brands. Some of the results I called BS. And we see these all the time. But be careful about brand surveys, especially as David points out as to how the questions are asked. I mean, are you really going to tell me that most people trust Google with their data trusted to give a great search result? Sure, with data that they sell to other brands, or any similar type company, maybe better than Facebook or Amazon? But come on, David said, it simply matters how you define trust, and how you ask these questions. Because even that we interpret a little bit differently. Very true. So here's a sample question on a brand that I will admit I love. Would you trust brands in that survey like Google and Microsoft and Netflix more than say, trusting St. Jude Children's Hospital? Seriously? It matters how we define trust.
Shark 39:36
Got a question? Send me an email to Kenneth at a shark's perspective dot com.
Shark 39:40
Thank you again for the privilege of your time. And I'm so thankful to everyone who listens.
Shark 39:45
Thank you to the amazing sponsors Invoca and Drips.
Shark 39:48
Please consider writing a review and letting me know your thoughts on the show.
Shark 39:52
I do not in any way discount this whatsoever. Thank you for trusting me with your time. It sincerely means so much and please join us on the next episode of A Shark's Perspective.
[music]
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Shark Trivia
Did You Know that Bruce once asked Why Trust a Shark….
….after the massive Great White Shark introduced himself to the frightened Nemo and Dory in Disney/Pixar’s Finding Nemo? Bruce, voiced by veteran Australian comedian and actor Barry Humphries, approached Nemo and Dory with his big grin when Nemo appeared frightened by Bruce’s toothy smile. Bruce responded with, “It’s alright. I understand. Why trust a shark right?”
Bruce invited them to a ‘get together’ that Dory believed was a party. Nemo feared that it might be harmful to them. Though, the ‘get together’ actually included other sharks meeting at a Fish-Friendly Sharks’ support group.
When reciting the fish-Friendly Sharks motto, the group said,"I am a nice shark, not a mindless eating machine. If I am to change this image, I must first change myself. Fish are friends, not food.”
About the “Shark” and Host of A Shark’s Perspective
Kenneth "Shark" Kinney is a keynote speaker, accomplished marketer, lead generation driver, and business growth consultant. He is passionate about leveraging data in omni-channel strategies and known for driving growth in Digital Marketing and Advanced and Addressable TV. He's led national campaigns working with brands including Acxiom, Citi, Chase, Target, GM, American Express, FedEx, Honda, Toyota, TD Ameritrade, Panera, TruGreen, and over 50 colleges and universities. He has also been an on air host and producer of TV and Radio programs.
Connect with me:
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