Transcription
****Please forgive any and all transcription errors as this was transcribed by Otter.ai.****

[intro music]
Shark 0:16
Welcome back and I am so glad to be back and thank you for joining A Shark's Perspective. I am Kenneth "Shark" Kinney, your host and Chief Shark Officer.

Shark 0:24
Let me tell you about an amazing sponsor who helps make this show possible. I hope that you'll take a look at Drips, the founders of conversational texting, where they use conversational AI to help you reach customers where they're most responsive, and that's on their phones. And working with major brands like Three Day Blinds, Liberty Mutual, Credit Repair, and Gainesco, Drips is leading the way for some of the biggest brands in the world to improve engagement rates and outcomes for their prospects and customers.

Shark 0:50
And now back to the show.

Shark 0:52
What if we could go beyond the conversation about diversity and take real action? That's a question about a lot of sensitive subjects not often easily answered by even a lot of diverse voices. So many times those conversations get drowned out by accusations from an author pushing an individual narrative. So how do we apply that conversation and looking at universal themes to take real action moving forward?

Shark 1:17
Super excited to welcome back for a 3rd-peet if you will show with Mr. Rohit Bhargava, the Wall Street Journal bestselling author of "Beyond Diversity" as well as the author of the Non-Obvious Megatrends series, a professor, a keynote speaker, and entrepreneur and the founder and chief trend curator for the Non-Obvious Company.

Shark 1:36
And on this episode, we'll discuss diversity inclusion, conversations, storytelling, identity, culture, technology, leadership, the workplace the future, the most diverse city in the US, Papa New Guinea, a little Telugu, California versus Texas, and a lot lot more.

Shark 1:51
So let's tune into a beyond diversity marketer with a Shark who swims in some pretty diverse waters on this episode of A Shark's Perspective.

Shark 2:04
Rohit, welcome back for a third time on A Shark's Perspective. There'll be an award ceremony afterwards. But welcome back. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Rohit Bhargava 2:13
Thank you, is this considered a hat trick now?

Shark 2:15
It is a hat trick and right now Rushmore of podcast guests. And I also attribute it back to a former podcasting platform I was using allowed me to remember episodes, so I have more than multiple episodes of you. But they're, they're both of the previous ones were both named 86 A and 86. B, then when I switch platforms that would let me do it. So it screwed up. But I'm so glad to have you back on multiple episodes now that I know how to not actually number them correctly. So love this new book. And we've talked to you before, when you had your previous books, the non obvious books, you wrote on trends. But this was a pretty hard pivot for you going from 10 books on digital marketing and marketing trends to diversity. What was sort of your aha moment that made you realize this as a book that you needed to write at the right time?

Rohit Bhargava 3:05
Yeah, you know, it does. I know, for a lot of my audience, it does seem like a pretty big pivot, because I'm known for talking about trends and seeing the world a little bit differently. And to me, this book was sort of like the prequel to non obvious, because a lot of what I talked about in the non obvious series, was teaching people how to see the world differently. And really, what this book is about is appreciating people who have perspectives that are not like yours. And I sort of touch on that in the non obvious series. But this was a chance for me to team up with another amazing author, bring in a lot of contributors, and really do a deep dive on diversity. And this sort of Hot Topic that everybody's been sort of wondering about and thinking about, and some people have been investing their time to do professionally in terms of helping companies to become more diverse and inclusive. And I wanted to do it in a in a way that respected kind of the background that I would be bringing to it as someone who is diverse, but is not a diversity expert.

Shark 4:07
And I love the idea of that. And that's one of the things that drew me to the book was the same reason why I named my show is shark's perspective, I wanted to look at things a lot differently than a lot of the traditional marketers and advertisers are doing and my nickname was shark. So that's why I called the sharks perspective. But I also thought it was very interesting for somebody that's written 10 books on this and to not be what would be considered a diversity expert. We all share unique viewpoints on subjects. How did you and Jennifer Brown get together in the first place? And then how did you come upon agreeing to nearly 250 pages of content that you get to share the same mindset to the most point on

Rohit Bhargava 4:47
Well, teaming up with Jennifer was was easy, because we just had great chemistry right from the beginning. And she has done a lot of work over the last decade in Teaching organizations to be more diverse and equitable and inclusive. And so this really was her world. And what I wanted to do was to try and take it out of the perception of Oh, wouldn't it be nice to have, if we just had a more diverse and inclusive company or workplace, and more towards the wow, we're really missing out on an opportunity to be more innovative, and to come up with better things and to reach more consumers and to have widen our target audience. Because we're not diverse and inclusive. So like, from my perspective, it was like this is a business imperative. And that's what I that's the the perspective, I wanted to bring to it. Because there are a lot of books talking about the moral imperative imperative of this. And I believe that also, I mean, it is important to me, that I live and I helped create a world that is inclusive and equitable for everybody, because that's the world I want my kids to grow up in. But I think that there hasn't been enough discussion of why this actually can have an impact in making your career better, no matter who you are, what perspective you come from, or making your company better or to make, you know, the company more profitable. I mean, all of those things are real benefits of thinking in this way. And so we wanted to kind of talk about both sides of that,

Shark 6:20
when you pulled together, trying to think how many months ago now, the summit was, for the January or so is how was that? Almost a year. So I love that you pulled together 200 speakers from a lot of diverse backgrounds, because for me as well, you know, I'm not a person of color. But I do really appreciate a diversity of thought, which I thought you did a really good job because I, I watched a lot of the sessions. A lot of people thought about this differently. But if you were to take a 30,000 foot kind of overarching view of the show itself, in all of the thought, were there any topics that jumped out at you that surprised you? Maybe this was more important? Was race or gender or sex or whatever it was? Did any one of those are more standout to you?

Rohit Bhargava 7:07
Yeah, I mean, all of the above, I would say I mean, one of the things that was a natural thought, when we first decided to hold a virtual Diversity Summit, was to have our sessions on topics that people were talking about. And so we'd have a session on women in tech, we'd have a session on racism in the workplace, we and and we intentionally decided not to do it that way. And instead, what we decided to do was look at these universal themes, and then bring people from all different perspectives. So we had a session on what it means to be a diverse casting director in Hollywood and in TV shows, we had a session where we had stand up comedians, talking about whether diversity can be funny. We had a session on children's literature, we had a session on publishing the the session on public health, politics. I mean, these were the types of topics that we were talking about. And under each one of them, we had people coming from so many different perspectives. So it wasn't just race, gender, ethnicity, it was also people with disabilities. It was also people who suffered from ageism at work. So it was every dimension of this conversation about diversity, including the ones that are often left out.

Shark 8:20
Yeah. And I like the fact that you call this this is not a research book. It's a do something book. Because like, you're not obvious at the end of every chapter, you provide some real actionable items, what companies can do what the person can do, and I thought that was fantastic. I remember watching one of the speakers my soon XYY, the comedian, yep, hilarious. One, I applaud you for welcoming in people with disabilities into the conversation that's not spoken about nearly enough. I talked about this a lot on my own show. One of my best friends is disabled. I've got this in my family as well. But another point she made was, she had a lot of individual diversity options, if you will, like being disabled, female, Palestinian, Muslim, a woman of color, divorced and living in New Jersey, which was funny disability she made a joke about but you know, she points about creating a safe place where people feel included, and, you know, everybody's got their own unique, diverse options, if you will, but a lot of people have a lot of diversity. You're diverse. Jennifer's diverse, my Sue's diverse, how do we create that safe place to where this hodgepodge of all kinds of diversity can really be appreciated and respected by all?

Rohit Bhargava 9:39
Well, I think it starts with not seeing diversity and inclusion as someone else's fight. Because there's always someone else, you know, no matter who I mean, I am a person of color but I'm not female. Right? I don't have a disability. And so I fit into some groups but not other groups. And I don't pretend to understand everyone's experience. But I do believe that we can all do more to welcome all of those different perspectives into the world that we inhabit, whether it's our workplace, but also the stories that we choose to consume, right. And there's a lot of things that are under our personal control, I mean, the book that you choose to pick up and read is under your control. The TV show that you choose to watch the film that you choose to stream on Netflix, these are all choices that you make. And if you reinforce the same worldview, and you only watch or read things that are written for and by people who look like you, you're just reinforcing that same perspective, and you're missing out on a chance to be what I always call a non obvious thinker. And so to me, what this book really tried to remind people of is it there's beauty in the ability to see all of these other perspectives and to welcome all these other people into your life into your workplace into the shows and content that you consume? And I think that we all have the chance to choose to do that. We just need a reminder sometimes

Shark 11:13
a great, yeah, no, I think it's a great point. So you and Jennifer wrote about 12 Different themes across the spectrum, I'm gonna run through them, storytelling, identity, family, culture, education, retail, the workplace technology, entrepreneurship, leadership, government and the future. We're any of those bigger aha moments when you dove into the research? Or, I guess, where did you come up with that list of 12?

Rohit Bhargava 11:39
You know, each one did kind of have its own aha moments, I think that what is really fascinating for people is this is a book about diversity and inclusion. And what you didn't read in any of those 12 themes was disability, African Americans, women. That's not how we organize this book. We organized it in terms of storytelling, or technology, or government. And these are their themes that cut across all of our lives. We're all impacted by these things. And so as we did these deep dives into each one, we found, wow, you know, how much are the stories that we read, shaped by the people who are allowed to tell those stories? And how has that shifted now in terms of giving other people the microphone? And how does that change the way that we interact with these stories, when we get to consume them? Same thing in government? Like who is representing us? And and are they as diverse as they could be? We talked about the future, we did a deep dive into urban planning in ways that there was this, what's now kind of being called in media debates in infrastructural racism. So these choices that were made decades ago, that reinforce these boundaries that exist between cities that keep different people apart from one another. So all of these things were sort of micro aha moments, I guess I would say, I knew a little bit about them. But as we dug into the research and conversations and interviews and all the things that we did to put this book together, it was just one fascination after another.

Shark 13:13
Sure. Well, one of the action items you mentioned in the book was leaning into the intersections of your own identity and becoming a role model. Elaborate on that, please, what your thoughts are around them.

Rohit Bhargava 13:25
So there's this really well known concept of intersectionality, which was actually first introduced by an author and researcher named Kimberly Crenshaw. And what it essentially says is, we are never one thing, we are multiple things. So I'm not just a person of color. I'm also also male, I'm also a person of color, I'm also a father, I also come from a relatively affluent background, in terms of just being able to afford whatever I want, right now. And so all of these things are intersections that create my identity. And the more we try and define people by one thing, whether it's their sexual orientation, or their gender, or their ethnicity, or where they grew up, or the zip code that they come from, the less they're able to feel truly like themselves. And the more we create an atmosphere where people can have these intersections and exist as they are, the more people feel like they can show up as their true selves in life and work and everything in between.

Shark 14:26
Fair. So one of the things that I thought of in particular reading this book, and I was trying to pull myself out of it, but I was thinking about this in particular, with workplaces, with companies, brands, organizations, etc. Where's the place that they need to get to to feel like they're in a good place? From a diversity inclusion standpoint, because there isn't an exact definition of this. There is an inexact science or not that there ever will be an endpoint because it's always changing and evolving, but it's also something that people can measure and achieve without necessarily sticking their finger in the air to measure You know what the wind direction is. And I say that not to trivialize it to figure out where the winds blowing. But it's also that a lot of companies may be of a large size. And it's hard to pivot. This is not like changing out a piece of machinery. It's changing out the way a lot of people think and feel in coexist with each other, especially in a workplace. How do you think a company can help get to where they feel good about what they're doing, to make certain that their employees are appreciated, and probably a little bit of vice versa? For a lot of employees to think I'm in a good place where I work today?

Rohit Bhargava 15:35
Well, one of the concepts that Jennifer often talks about is the rule of threes. And what it essentially says is, it's not enough to hire or include one person with a single perspective, because they're basically the sole voice that gets minimized in a conversation. So if you're looking at, for example, a boardroom, you can't just have one person who comes from a minority perspective, you need to have at least three in order to have enough of an impact. And it doesn't matter how vocal that one person is, when you create that concept, that oh, we have one diverse person, here's our diverse person, you know, check them out in the in the team photo, it creates this false sense that you've achieved an end goal, when actually that should just be seen as the beginning. And I think that's one of the big perspectives that we try and share in the book that it's not about feeling like you hired one person who's diverse, and now you're done. It takes more work than that.

Shark 16:34
Fair point. So what was your biggest moment out of writing this book, compared to what you went through when you were writing the non obvious trends and mega trends?

Rohit Bhargava 16:47
Well, I think that, I mean, the biggest difference I would say, is, when I wrote non obvious, and every year as I did a new version of it. That was my expertise. And the way that book was written is I'm the expert, I've done these things. And I'm going to teach you how to do this. And that was the perspective of that book. And that's why it's done so well, for me, commercially. That's why it drives so much of the speaking that I do, and as helped me to build a platform as an expert, beyond diversity, was really a book to build a stage that other people could be featured on. And that was really fulfilling for me in a very different way. Because I'm not the expert on this. And I'm not trying to be, what I'm trying to do is shine a spotlight on all of the people whose stories you should know and whose perspectives you should hear, and put them together in a way that would be actionable and useful for people. And that's the biggest difference between this book and my last book,

Shark 17:46
well, in probably, you know, I'm not gonna put words in your mouth, but I'm sure because as now that we've got to know each other a little bit over the years, I'm sure a lot of it also impacts you, as a dad, certainly think about what's the kind of research it's really going to impact my relationship with my children and what I want them to learn on their own. That's something that that obviously impacts me as my own family, as my own child, you know, gets older in life. And so it's very interesting that you can start crystallizing what's really important in the world with where a lot of our research is.

Rohit Bhargava 18:15
Yeah, I mean, that was, that was a huge piece of it for me. But I also I mean, I also had a bit of an awakening, when it came to that, because we did, we had a chapter all about family. And I never really thought about it, but I write about the future all the time, right. And when I write about the future, a lot of times I default to this kind of, it's not a cliche, but it's like a saying, right, which is like, what is the future we want to create for our kids. And that would be my default place and be like, we need to build this world for our kids. And what I realized that the process of writing this book is that there's a lot of people who care deeply about the future, but don't have kids, either by choice or by circumstance, or whatever the reason is, and so focusing on this future for our kids actually alienate some people who care about the future and want to build a better future, but it's not because of their kids. And that was just one of those kind of micro blind spots that I was forced to confront in myself. That you know, I mean, I don't think anybody who would hear that would necessarily be offended that I talked about my kids when they don't have kids, right. So it's not deeply offensive in a way that some other things could be, but it still is not as inclusive as it could be. And so I started catching myself and I started thinking about those types of details, and trying to be conscious of the language I was using, and whether it may unintentionally be excluding some people.

Shark 19:39
Do you think we're in a good place, though, in society, and I applaud you for putting a spotlight on it not calling yourself the expert, because it would be very easy for a lot of people to have done that. Do you think we're in a good place to where we can have conversations today though, about this because you often find that there are a lot of people who maybe feel like they're doing more than they're getting called out for. And I'm not trying to make a political statement. But as we go through this, a lot of times, it's something you find out on your own. Or other times, it's something, somebody's yelling at you on Twitter. You know what I mean?

Rohit Bhargava 20:16
When, when your conversation starts with an accusation, it's really tough to have a productive discussion after that. And so, a lot of books in this category, you know, I mean, there, I've read a ton of books about diversity and inclusion, and you know, a lot of them in the title, even spotlight racism and call people racist, and say, You're a racist. And when someone picks up a book, or a perspective, from that point of view, it feels like an accusation against them. And and anyone who's picking up a book like that probably isn't deeply racist, Otherwise, they wouldn't read that book in the first place. So it probably feels like an unfair accusation to. And one of the things that we thought deeply about is how do we write about these really sensitive topics and talk about diversity and inclusion and racism in a way that doesn't feel like an accusation of the reader in a, in a kind of big pronounced way, you're a racist, but even in a smaller way, as in, you're not doing enough, and you should be doing more, and you should be waking up every day, you know, talking about your own privilege, and talking about the ways that you are not making the world more inclusive for everyone else. I mean, it's not a positive way to bring people into this conversation. And so we really thought a lot about how do we introduce this sensitive topic and get people to do more? I mean, that is the intent, right? We want people to do more, but how do we do it in a way that feels welcoming instead of an accusation?

Shark 21:54
Yeah, great point. So in the conclusion you wrote, I want to read something real quick, and inclusive, where all starts with each of us choosing to respect perspectives, other than our own, treating everyone with respect, and choosing to stand up for others who need our support more than anything else. This is what going beyond diversity truly means. Excellent writing. I really enjoyed that comment.

Shark 22:14
So Rohit, we've done some of these questions before. Last time you chose the hammerhead sharks, I'm not gonna ask you what your favorite shark is. However, it's again, that time for the five most interesting and important questions that you're going to be asked today. Are you ready? Okay.

Rohit Bhargava 22:29
I hope so.

Shark 22:31
Alright. Number one, you live in the DC area. So this should be a good one. This goes back to a memory I had as well, Washington DC, or Houston, Texas.

Rohit Bhargava 22:44
I would have to say DC. I do like Houston. But I would have to say DC.

Shark 22:48
So Houston is considered the most diverse city in the country. Is population seven in DC, oddly enough, is 17th. Maybe because it only has, you know, the blues and the reds. That for the days and the hours that they probably do similarly. Alright, number two, they say there's gonna be testing your diversity knowledge. Papa New Guinea, or Indonesia?

Rohit Bhargava 23:16
I would say Papa New Guinea.

Shark 23:17
So Papa New Guinea is the most diverse country linguistically. This I found this to be very interesting in the world. 840 languages spoken across the country, the size of California. So

Rohit Bhargava 23:32
yeah, very odd. Yeah, that is a that reminds me of India. There's so many different languages when you move from one region to the next. It's crazy.

Shark 23:42
Yeah. Yeah, I was always proud to tell people I knew a little bit of Telugu and I just stick with that and go,

Rohit Bhargava 23:47
That's pretty good. Yeah, that's pretty good.

Shark 23:49
Alright, number three, California or Texas?

Rohit Bhargava 23:54
Uh, then I'd say California.

Shark 23:59
So California is the most diverse state in the country by less than 1% more than Texas. A lot of people don't even realize how diverse Texas is. And they've had a huge, especially in the south east Texas over the last decade. So Alright, number four more males or females in marketing and advertising today? I would say female. Females are correct in the I've gotten 50 different numbers. It was interesting doing a lot of research, but it has become a much more diverse than still not enough in the leadership at the top but a lot more diversity than would have been, say 1020 years ago.

Rohit Bhargava 24:43
So here's so here's the thing. I was working in advertising, yeah. 10-20 years ago with Ogilvy and a bunch of yes, so I so let's see. I worked in advertising from about 2000 until 2015. And every one of my bosses was Female except one in those 15 years. But timespan. So even at that time, it felt like they were they were more women.

Shark 25:08
True. Alright, not gonna ask you biscuits or cornbread, you did pick cornbread last time. So number five and the most I would still pick corn bread, you still pick corn bread. But number five, the most important question that you're going to be asked today, and I'm not talking about current book sales, okay, the non obvious trend series or beyond diversity?

Rohit Bhargava 25:28
Well, we got to go with the latest book, I believe. We just have to that's that's a marketers code that you'll have. Yeah, that's the book I'm promoting right now. So of course,

Shark 25:37
I'm waiting for nine more additions to come over the next decade. Because this is one you could write for 100 years. And nobody updates every

Rohit Bhargava 25:45
year Volume Two and volume three if we did do it, so yeah.

Shark 25:49
Alright, well Rohit, where can people find out more about you get a copy of the book see on stage in more?

Rohit Bhargava 25:55
Well, so everything's available at non obvious diversity.com. Just all one word. And you mentioned a couple times we talked about the virtual Summit. You can watch all the videos totally for free, straight from that website as well. And pick up a copy of the book, get an excerpt, get the audiobook version of the book. And we are also in just a couple of weeks going to have a large print edition of the book as well.

Shark 26:16
Fantastic. I'm going to include the summit on my website as well with a link. So Rohit. Thank you again for being with us today on the third time of A Shark's Perspective.

Rohit Bhargava 26:27
Thank you. Thanks for inviting me.

Shark 26:34
So that was my conversation with Rohit Bhargava, the Wall Street Journal best selling co author of beyond diversity, as well as the author of the non obvious mega trends series, a professor, a keynote speaker, and entrepreneur, and the founder and chief trend curator for the non obvious company.

Shark 26:49
Let's take a look at three key takeaways from our conversation with him.

Shark 26:52
First, I've been a fan of much of Rohit's work on digital trends in the past, used to talk about trends and how to look at the world a little bit differently. That non obvious work extends to diversity. The views and opinions on diversity are diverse, to say the least. So it's hard for many that often come to agreement. But what I like and how arrowhead a marketer, who is a diverse person, but not a Dorsey expert reminds us is that we need to appreciate people who have perspectives which are not like yours.

Shark 27:19
Second, I applaud how the themes of this book were not shaped by narrative pushing this angle or that many, most diversity books often push a certain narrative. It's often buried deep, but you can uncover where the author is coming from this book seemed to push more of the idea of going beyond diversity in conversation with universal themes, and how to take real action in practical situations, whether it be through storytelling technology, the workplace, etc. I don't agree with everything Rohit or Jennifer say, don't have to and either to you. They didn't intend that. But they fostered a conversation with how he described it earlier, as a conversation on really sensitive topics well done from my point of view.

Shark 27:59
Third row had points out that it starts with not seeing diversity as someone else's fight. I'll paraphrase what he said, I don't pretend to understand everyone's experience. But we can all do more to welcome all of those different perspectives. Look, if you only reinforce the same point of view, then you may never see another perspective. This isn't a political statement or anything like that for me, but just from a marketing standpoint alone, we have to broaden our perspective with our customer base. On that view. The Press often gaslights us in a way meant to inflame audiences. Advertisers often do this as well. But what it doesn't do enough of is to open this up to real conversation, which this book does. And taking action upon that real conversation is what's needed to move any diversity going forward.

Shark 28:43
Got a question? Send me an email to Kenneth at a shark's perspective dot com.

Shark 28:47
Thank you again for the privilege of your time. I'm so thankful to everyone who listens. Thank you to my sponsor and the team at Drips.

Shark 28:54
Please consider writing a review and letting me know your thoughts on the show. Reach out let me know.

Shark 28:58
It's time to go out there and dive into some diverse waters with a diverse species of sharks over 500 of them. So please join us on the next episode of A Shark's Perspective.
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