Transcription
****Please forgive any and all transcription errors as this was transcribed by Otter.ai.****

[intro music]
Shark 0:16
Welcome back and thank you for joining A Shark's Perspective. I am Kenneth "Shark" Kinney, your host and Chief Shark Officer.

Shark 0:22
First let me tell you about two amazing sponsors who make the show possible. Let's talk first about inbound from marketing to sales and commerce to CX, Invoca is active conversation intelligence platform enables revenue teams to create better buying experiences drive more leads increase revenue, trust to buy top brands like Dish Network, Mayo Clinic, Mutual of Omaha, ADT, the Invoca team is doing some amazing work in turning conversational data into automated action to enhance digital touchpoints in human interaction.

Shark 0:53
Next, let's talk about inbound. I hope that you take a look at Drips, the founders of conversational texting where they use conversational AI to help you reach customers where they're most responsive. And that's on their phones in working with major brands like Three Day Blinds, Liberty Mutual, Credit Repair, and Gainsco, Drips is leading the way for some of the biggest brands in the world to improve engagement rates and outcomes for their prospects and customers.

Shark 1:17
Thank you to Invoca and Drips. And now back to the show.

Shark 1:20
You might buy a dozen roses via chat, messenger or text. But how comfortable would you be with buying a large purchase item like say an automobile and handling that interaction interesting your data throughout a chat, especially via social network. Every country and region of the world has its own social culture. But that also includes that differentiation in digital culture in the way people use social media. Some channels have a larger reach that's truly global, yet social habits, respect for customer data, and the way people buy say 10,000 miles away is important to understanding conversational commerce and Digital Trends in Asia. Astha Kalbag is a marketing science expert at Facebook in Singapore. And she's the author of marketing, a recognized blog and voice on Digital Trends in Asian Pacific markets. And on this episode, we'll discuss Digital Trends in Asia, conversational commerce, culturally loving to chat and text digital first markets how social plays a part in the customer journey in Asia, including building trust, how TV can interact with social activating channels in an omni channel world, Facebook, Instagram WeChat tik tok cows with roster wigs, chilli crab, and a lot lot more. So let's tune into a lover of cows with a true lover of sharks on this episode of A Shark's Perspective.

Shark 2:50
So thank you so much for joining us today on A Shark's Perspective. Tell us a little bit about your background journey your career to date.

Astha Kalbag 2:57
Sure, I think I've been someone who's always super passionate about marketing, the kind of person who would watch YouTube videos to find like the best ads or video that was me pretty much growing up when all of my friends and family judged me because they were trying to ignore ads. Whereas I just had a natural affinity towards loving ads and the creativity that went behind it. And during university, I started a marketing blog that really took off, which is called marketing.com. That's reading now over 150 countries. But it was really a way for me to be in touch with what's happening in the industry and to really, you know, share my opinion and my voice about different ad campaigns and different you know, Digital Trends and you know, see where things are moving and how quickly they're evolving, especially compared to what you know, I was learning in University at the time. And my career pretty much has been centered around being in technology, being in digital marketing companies and trying to be at the forefront of the future of advertising. So I've had a couple of interesting gates and stunts that performance marketing with both Skyscanner and Uber. And as of today, I work at Facebook as a marketing science back now what I help advertisers understand the ROI of the investments. And yeah, really just measure the impact of all of the good stuff that they're doing.

Shark 4:23
So where did the name marketing come from? Was this an affinity for cows or something like that? Pretty much was it? I got affinity for shark so it makes sense.

Astha Kalbag 4:34
I think we all are some sort of animal and I guess fish lovers here, but yeah, pretty much I've had an affinity for a cause. And moreover, the cow has a roster rig. got red, yellow and green. Say I just been fascinated from my travels in Jamaica and I've just been loving towers and graphs.

Shark 4:58
Yeah, well, I met you three emceeing and hosting an event that was a global conference. And as I've gotten to know, you're in Singapore, and I'd love you to kind of touch on Well, every nation somewhat have their own has their own digital culture and feel, what are the interesting trends particular to Asia and the part of the world where you are, particularly with performance media and media consumption? General?

Astha Kalbag 5:23
Sure, yeah. I think one of the, you know, really interesting behaviors, when it comes to our product, Asia is that we love to chat, we love to text, I mean, it's kind of been, you know, from the days of like, WeChat, you know, having its waves. But really, if you think about WeChat, messenger, WhatsApp, all of these different tools and functionality. A lot of us actually probably even prefer chatting and texting or actually, you know, calling or having a conversation. And that behavior in itself, that level of comfort that you have, in a way to interact with brands to interact with customer service, to be part of that entire brand experience, end to end is something that is being fueled, and not just fueled but incubated in Asia, a trend that we call social commerce. So pretty much, you know, this is the hub of actually having an entire interaction with a brand through, let's say, a messenger chat function, where you have that kind of level of personalized experience. It's not just want a website and having a few clicks, but you feel that, you know, you can be involved with the business. And a lot of these businesses actually have real people who are chatting with you trying to understand what you want, what your needs are, you know, wishing you a, you know, in this case, a holiday like Happy Holidays, and you just feel so connected. And this is really the wave that's really driving the ecosystem of digital in Asia,

Shark 6:58
Have you done research really compared to what it's like in the US because I think, you know, that form of conversational commerce, if you will, has been around a few years here in the US as well. But one of the things I did find, though, that was very interesting, last time we spoke is, you know, obviously, the US has outsourced a lot of the work for all kinds of jobs, especially in customer service all over the world it was in India decades ago, and then a lot of that move towards the Philippines and everywhere else. But you know, you said as well that you're in a part of the world where you can have more actual chats with real people as opposed to just bots, because the price of labor in that part of the world is much cheaper than it is say here in the US. And I thought that was interesting, because so many people are moving towards bots to help people move towards the next step. There's only so much good interaction you're going to get with most bots. So talk a little bit about what you're seeing with how that labor difference with how some a real human can have interaction with somebody in a chat function, as opposed to what is typically automated.

Astha Kalbag 8:03
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, at the end of the day, it is about two things, right? One is the end to end customer experience. And the second is understanding cost economics, right? So obviously, all brands want to have as highly personalized experiences as they can with the customer. It's just about if you can actually be able to scale with those kinds of unit economics, right. And a lot of the innovation, I think, in the West in the US particularly is driven by chatbots really integrating with AI being able to understand that you can machine learning, like what are some of the most commonly asked questions, how are we tackling them? How can we humanize them more, but I feel in this part of the world, you know, we can in a way, say like we can afford to have that kind of human capital that's invested. And to be able to do that in a very efficient way. For example, you know, one person, it's literally the the model of a salesperson except the salesperson is not making calls, the salesperson is interacting through messaging, and you have your own, you know, book of business, you have your own accounts, you have your own territories, and it's just being managed so well and so efficiently. So I would say that's one big difference. The other big difference is the level of comfort and trust, right? So a lot of consumers here, I'm very comfortable to buy something through a chat functionality and not even ever want to go to a website. You know, whereas I think in the US, like, that's one of the first few things that you know, you probably go and check like, is it legitimate? Is it credible, doesn't have a website, it's not you're like, I'm not so sure. But over here, like the trust that we have, through these unionizing experiences, even through let's say, you know, just Instagram direct messaging, it's just as organic is that and people are going as far As you know, buying, you know, a bouquet of roses to an end to a car that shipped from one part of the country to another just through chat.

Shark 10:10
So I think that is really where you see the scale and the potential of conversational commerce in the region. How much of that do you think is a cultural difference between the way Asian people in particular look at data privacy versus how the Western world does, especially when you think of GDPR. And now all the legislation that's being enacted here, there's there's a renewed focus on data privacy, not that we're not still giving all of that data away to all kinds of vendors, even when we check the box that says don't share, there's still plenty of examples where people are doing it. But culturally, is this a big massive concern for people in your part of the world?

Astha Kalbag 10:51
Yeah, I mean, that's a very interesting question. And I think when you say data, there are a lot of different layers of data. I think the one that most of us I mean, and for obvious reasons, I'm most concerned, is data around payments. So let's say credit card information, those kinds of things. And I think there's so much innovation that's happening in the FinTech space here that, you know, you really try to rely on what our definition of data is, when it comes to payments. For example, a lot of models, a lot of ecommerce models, here are cash on delivery. So that's one huge difference, because generally, credit card penetration is low in a lot of countries here. Secondly, there is a big, big shift to mobile wallet payments. And that basically means that you have the ability to just scan a QR code from your phone, and you have this end to end encrypted transaction, which you pretty much more or less stripe, so you don't feel like oh, I'm giving my credit card information to random company x or y. And I think both of these trends together is what is making our commerce such a viable business model along with, you know, the way that is consumers over here prefer to interact with brands and the kind of experience you can build around that.

Shark 12:13
Well, and I think part of it that the data privacy issue is how is that data used, not necessarily whether or not the e commerce channel is secure. And I think that's been the the growing concern for a lot of people in this part of the world with how his company X, Y, or Z, using the data to create ads and profiles, and all those kind of things that are going to constantly influence the way people buy and behave. Another thing I wanted to talk about was when you had actually presented at the conference, we talked a lot about TV with social, which I found interesting to see someone at Facebook presenting about TV, talking about how you're studying how social impacts the performance of TV and vice versa in a performance or commerce method.

Astha Kalbag 13:02
Sure, um, I would say one of my personal like endeavors or like research projects, if I may call it is really to have a holistic understanding of different channels, and how they interact. And of course, my day to day job in marketing science also enables me to, you know, meet that goal. But in general, the real question here is, of course, we know that we're touching consumers across multiple channels, there's so much cross device behavior, these things we know. But the question is, how do we one surely measure the effectiveness of different channels complementing each other? And to how do we build effective strategies, knowing that these channels are interacting with each other, right? So for example, we should not be in a world where we've made a TV commercial, and then we just copy paste that on YouTube. And we're like, Hey, you know, now I'm doing traditional and digital, right? Because you're just increasing frequency, you're reaching the same people, and you're just kind of wasting marketing dollars. So the question here is, how do we really use these channels effectively, and one of the ways that you can think about doing that is, let's say you have a big, you know, broad reach campaign on TV, and you can use other digital channels to actually close the loop. With leads, for example, another use case is let's say you have certain products, and you're certain flagship products and certain supplementary or smaller products, that's when you can actually say, hey, the flagship, big product launches stays on TV, whereas, you know, let's say, selling Chicken McNuggets is something that we want to do a digital only first right and, and why not? Because that helps you manage inventory, it helps you manage, you know, filling a specific customer need and obviously, the opportunity to target the right audience with those product categories is massive. You can really do so much so That is really what interests me. And you know, how do we actually build a future of marketing where we have an understanding of the shammies interacting and have a cohesive strategy around it when it comes to touching the right audiences in the right way.

Shark 15:17
One of the things we talk about here a lot, and I'm sure you would understand this, even at Facebook, but every publisher is basically competing for ad dollars, you understand this as a marketer that we need to make the channels work together. But a lot of times the measurement comes to future adspend. So how do you think of this ad spend to figure out how did Facebook perform well, versus spending money on TV versus spending money on any other channel, because each of those have what we call walled gardens, you know, and those walled gardens are getting taller. For a lot of reason, everybody started competing for those ad dollars. And that becomes an interesting way for us, if we're sitting on the brand side, or the agency working with them to figure out what worked that drove more sales. What's the advice you would give on somebody trying to figure out that measurement, considering that each group has a different way of delivering exposure data and things like that? So we can do measurement?

Astha Kalbag 16:14
Sure. Yeah. I mean, this is a question that I mean, I am also trying to, you know, be on top of and figure out as we go, and as the industry evolves, as well. But fundamentally, I think measurement in itself has evolved so much from just, you know, Cookie data or site visit or data, right, like a good measurement. Yeah, thank goodness for that. Um, today, measurement is about the science of marketing, it is about actually running experimentation that, you know, leads you to be scientific in your approach, which means you build a hypothesis, you have pulled out of control groups, you make sure your samples are representative, you are setting up lift studies, and you are actually getting the right kind of insights. And the way that a lot of you know, if I would say sophisticated advertisers are trying to get an understanding of this is to really start setting up more ways of true experimental design, which is to set up holdout groups. So that could be added channel level. For example, let's say, you know, you have hold up to 10%, versus an exposed group was exposed to advertising, and try to see the true incremental value or left, or it could be to the extent of, you know, even testing specific similar states, and having one channel that's activated in state a, and having no channel activated in state B, and then trying to understand lift. So you know, really, at a macro level, I think that's where we want to use that opportunity. And as marketers, we need to think more macro, in terms of what is going to give me the right kind of directional data to guide my strategy, and marketing investments, rather than, you know, to think about things on a person to person level, which is, you know, who's exposed to what ad and what that customer journey and so I think directionally, I do believe that's where the industry should and will move towards which is, you know, scientific experimentation, and, you know, understanding ROI and measurement outcomes through those kind of methodologies.

Shark 18:26
That's really when we think about measuring, if you're thinking about planning, though, if you think about all the different social channels to be on TV, digital, print, programmatic display ads, everywhere, whatever, you know, you name it, we've got channels, how do you start advising the people through your consultancy? What's the strategy and plan to start thinking about to have that holistic, integrated approach?

Astha Kalbag 18:49
So, I mean, obviously, it is, you know, kind of back to the basics, right? First of all, we want to make sure that our audiences, the audiences that we care about as a business on the specific channels that we're targeting, right, like, not every business is going to be relevant to a tick tock user or a LinkedIn user. Right? So that's obviously the most fundamental thing Having said that, there are a lot of different approaches that you could take. But of course, there are some, I would say like palm prints as to where you want to start with depending on where your business is, if you're more b2c BTC focus, you tend to skew towards like the Facebook, Instagram, Googles of the world. Whereas if you're more b2b focused, obviously, you have a lot of different channels like LinkedIn, CRM, etc. And on top of that, what I think is really important is every time you activate a new channel, you want to make sure that that channel is driving additional value to you compared to a baseline or a holdout, right, because the question is every incremental additional dollar that you spend Should I spend it in a channel that I'm already in? Like, advertising on Instagram? Should I spend that dollar? You know, further fueling Instagram? Or should I spend that dollar in tik tok, right? So you want to make sure that when you activate a new channel, always, always make sure that it's adding more value other than just, you know, riding on a train, like, Hey, you know, this is the new and upcoming, and you need to be on clubhouse, like, those kinds of things. And then make sure that you're doing a lot of testing in terms of the right budget allocation. So move things around, you know, being that test and learn mindset and try to see, as you're shifting around your media budgets to figure out the right media mix. What is that right combination that is driving the most value for you in terms of your business.

Shark 20:52
One of the things that from a performance marketing standpoint, you continue to learn, especially during the pandemic is how much more important social media has become, as part of the buyers journey, at least what we see in this part of the world are us recognizing that more and more in the Asian world as well.

Astha Kalbag 21:10
So I'm from the perspective of, you know, the US versus Asia when it comes to social media. It is probably growing enormously as part of the consumer journey. And I mean, I wouldn't say you know, comparative stats, but I would say that it is massive as part of the user journey. It's massive in building trust with brands. It's huge as a channel to actually more and more to build brand trust as well, like, fundamentally, we come from a world where we trust anything that we see on a billboard or TV, you know, that makes it through but now, brands are pretty much launching on social and people are trusting it. And I think that trust factor is the defining is the defining trait of the role that social media is playing now, in Asia.

Shark 22:08
You're in an island nation, there's obviously fishing is a big part of the area, a lot of bamboo sharks around but what is your favorite kind of shark and why? I guess the great way, the great white shark. Yeah, yeah, well, sharks are great, too. So asked, it's a special time in the show. Are you ready for the five most interesting and important questions that you're going to be asked today? Yes. Number one, Facebook or Instagram? Instagram. Really? All right, and why so?

Astha Kalbag 22:42
Oh, it's where I am the most engaged. It's where I share the most and I just love. Yeah, I just love the interface and all of the content that I'm following.

Shark 22:52
Are you finding that Instagram in the Asian world is also I mean, you know, Facebook's obviously got an aging population. I don't know it's still growing for I think 55 Plus, but his Instagrams obviously been pretty significant thing, especially among millennials over the last, say, five years, is it or has it grown in importance the same way in Singaporean culture and Asian culture? Like it is here in the US?

Astha Kalbag 23:17
Oh, absolutely. We are slowly moving to an Instagram first world, which means that your first account is actually built on Instagram. And then you may or may not create a profile on Facebook, especially Singapore, Korea. This is like a huge young population. And yeah, just connect on Instagram.

Shark 23:35
Alright, number two, chili crab or Nasi Lemak. That stuff, I would say chili proud. Okay, so the national dish of Singapore number number three live videos or videos and stories. I would say videos and stories but personal preference. Okay, perfect. All right, number four, you get to tourists coming to town. Right? Where you taking them? Gardens by the Bay, which is phenomenal. Or the observation deck at Marina Bay Sands done quite a bit. Yeah, it's amazing. Alright, number five, the most important question that you're gonna be asked today. And this is a little bit of an American twist on it because of our kind of bread, biscuits or cornbread. Wow. Conrad, and we think cornbread and chili crab would go go well together. Yeah. So as to where can people find out more about you read your blog? I mean, obviously, they can go to Facebook and find Facebook. But where do you want them to keep up with you?

Astha Kalbag 24:46
I definitely find me on My blog. marketing.com it's moved from the cow. And yeah, I think LinkedIn is definitely a great place for us to meet and chat as well.

Shark 24:58
Perfect. So it's been a real pleasure. Thank you again for joining us today on A Shark's Perspective. Thank you so much.

Shark 25:10
So there was my conversation with Astha Kalbag, a marketing science expert at Facebook in Singapore. And she's the author of marketing, a recognized blog and voice on Digital Trends in Asian Pacific markets. Let's take a look at three key takeaways from our conversation with her.

Shark 25:25
First one trend to note in Asia, that's a digital cultural trend is that per Asda, and again, broadly speaking, Asians are generally more trusting of conversational commerce done with someone via chat, where you would say give your credit card number to someone on live chat to handle the transaction, more so than in the US where so much gets pushed to a secure server on a website, or just a chat bot in the US in the Western world. And generally speaking, we respect to a fair degree secure websites where we can make online purchases, even with larger ticket items. Asia, though, has seen a significant increase that outpaces us that while growing in Western markets isn't at the level of commerce that Asian markets are today. But again, chatting with a real human rather than a bot can make a great differentiator for your brand in any instance of chat.

Shark 26:13
Second, for several years, I worked on measurement campaigns worth hundreds of millions of dollars, which reflected the direct sales impact on channels and how they would work together. It's imperative when you look at a campaign to at least consider that unless you only have one media channel, and that's likely big No, then you have to consider how a customer may see one advertisement or a piece of marketing material, or both. And then how did all those trigger conversion? One of my favorite examples is that you see an ad on TV, and then you go to your Google machine, pick up your phone or you go to Facebook or Instagram. And then from there you make a purchase. The credit too often goes to the last click of the last channel, but you have to think about what triggered that conversion. What drove them to the point of purchase. It's rarely a straight path. And unfortunately, a lot of attribution models don't take a look at how you executed the campaigns with putting the media together all at the same time.

Shark 27:05
Third, randomly thought of this closing thought. I spoke at several lead generation and compliance conferences about fearless marketing. I was asked to lean into that topic because the conference series organizer knows about my passion and conservation efforts for sharks and how I love to swim with them. And since Astha loves cows, I get to bring up this trivia. Did you know that cows generally kill about twice as many people every year as shards? They're either gore people, their horns, or they hurt people in Stampede. So luckily, sharks don't have horns. So take that cows.

Shark 27:37
Got a question? Send me an email to Kenneth at a sharks perspective, calm. Thank you again for the privilege of your time. I'm so thankful to everyone who listens. Thank you to my amazing sponsors of open dribs. And would you do me a favor? If you liked this episode? Would you consider writing a review of otter to be your host? I am Kenneth shark Kinney. I hope you'll move over your schedule and join us on the next episode of A Shark's Perspective. [music]