****Please forgive any and all transcription errors as this was transcribed by Otter.ai.****

(Music - shark theme)

Kenneth Kinney 0:16

Hello, and welcome back to A Shark's Perspective.

Kenneth Kinney 0:18

If you wanted to start somewhere with changing the experience, then bringing new employees in, as well as keeping them is a great place to start as well. Everyone wants to work for a great company, right? But so many companies fail at telling the stories of their employees and really knowing how to use that as a competitive differentiator of their own. This one's been a big part of my own personal experience dating back to early in my career, and I see it just as much not being used well today. Too often we see the logo just slapped on any random employee story. And trust me, that isn't the story.

Kenneth Kinney 0:48

Elizabeth Vassolo is the head of Global Employment brand, and McDermott Will and Emery, a global law firm and the former head of employer brand marketing at the Kraft Heinz Company.

Kenneth Kinney 0:58

And on this episode, we'll discuss marketing, HR recruiting, a product that can change its mind storytelling content pillars, Atticus Finch, ketchup, Kool Aid, Oscar Meyer, and a lot, lot more.

Kenneth Kinney 1:08

So let's tune in to an HR marketer with a former recruiting shark on this episode of A Shark's Perspective.

[intro music]

Kenneth Kinney 1:19

Elizabeth, thank you so much for joining us today on sharks perspective, if you would tell us a little bit about your background and your career to date. Sure,

Elizabeth Vassolo 1:26

I am the head of employment brand at a global law firm McDermott will and Emery. Prior to that I was at Kraft Heinz and I was head of employment brand there. Before that I was working at a network infrastructure company and I was doing just general brand management. And then prior to that, I had my own business. And I was doing social media marketing and other kinds of other kinds of digital marketing, like email marketing, as well. And then prior, I worked with the Chicago Tribune, and I was part of a team that helped launch their user generated reverse public reverse published initiative called trib, local. So we were we were working in the communities, getting them involved with with trib local on the Chicago Tribune, and we had an online presence. And we also printed section in the Thursday paper that covered specific suburban knows.

Kenneth Kinney 2:20

Well, what got you interested in employer branding for HR?

Elizabeth Vassolo 2:26

So to me, when I think of employment branding, in terms of marketing, it's really no different than marketing, a product or a service. So really, you're marketing the experience of what it's like to be at a company. So I like this aspect of marketing, because it's really human focused. And so that gives you that gives you a lot of storytelling opportunities and a lot of expansion with that storytelling. Yeah. So that's, that's, that's really what attracted me to this space.

Kenneth Kinney 2:58

So I've been really happy having had a background in recruiting as well, to see marketing take more of a forefront with HR and recruiting, and especially with the ability to do storytelling. But why do you think it's needed today?

Elizabeth Vassolo 3:14

Well, I mean, we're in a really good job market. Companies are competing for top talent, right? Everybody wants everybody wants to get at this, this particular pool of candidates, you've got people leaving companies leaving jobs, after one year, two years, three years. So you're not seeing people spending 10 years at an organization. And, you know, we're all we're all digital savvy people. And when people are looking for jobs, they're doing research, right? And if you're not out there in a proactive way, then they're gonna have a hard time learning about you. And then you might potentially, you might potentially lose out on an excellent candidate for your organization.

Kenneth Kinney 3:54

How much of that? Do you think marketing can help fix though?

Elizabeth Vassolo 4:00

Oh, I think so. There's a couple of different things, marketing can only reflect the reality of what's happening at a company. So, so when I saw when I look at employment brand, you know, no company is perfect, right? So when I look at employment brand, we try to pull out the positives that we think truly differentiate us, and then also what we can, what we can realistically, promise, right? You need to make sure that your promise for your candidate is what they're going to experience at when they when they get a job, and they start and they start working. So that's something that's something that that is really, really important is that you have to have it rooted in reality. And then what you're also doing when you have this marketing program or campaigns and whatever, what other, whatever kind of communications you develop for the initiative, you're giving tools to the recruiters and to the hiring managers, so you're able to help control the narrative by giving them Giving them exactly what they need to communicate exactly what we need to communicate.

Kenneth Kinney 5:05

Perfect. So well, I know you jumped from Panduit to Kraft and dove in more into the employer side of it with that focus, how what was it like working with a brand as large as Kraft on helping develop their employment brand?

Elizabeth Vassolo 5:19

Yeah, so it's very interesting, the craft had three specific populations that they were going after in terms of employees, they had, they had the their manufacturing side of the business, they had their corporate side of the business, and then we had the student side of the business. So in turns and, and the university, the level hires. So what we needed to do is we needed to create something that talked to all of those audiences, but also gave us the ability to when we were talking to the audience to nuance the conversation. So when we were talking to the blue collar team and blue collar candidates, we, we had the same campaign, but we tweaked it a little bit, same for the white collar and same for the university audience as well. So it was exciting with Kraft Heinz, because you're on top of a bunch of really beloved brands. So in some ways, in some ways, it's easier when you have when you have a high profile consumer based organization, because you can pull into all of the things that that people love and know about the products.

Kenneth Kinney 6:29

Yeah, people already know, somewhat to some degree what they're getting into with a large company like that. But did you ever see that really as sort of a detriment to the recruiting practice as well, you know, as much as we know, and love craft, and planners and Oscar Meyer and Heinz and all those brands? Does it also make it difficult when recruiting the kind of candidate you may want to recruit?

Elizabeth Vassolo 6:54

I think so. So one of you know, no company is immune from negative press, right? So it's, I can safely say craft craft is has weathered a couple storms. And that's normal, right. So what we needed to make sure we needed to make sure that regardless of where potential candidates were finding us, we were buffering some of the negative news with really positive news. Because for all of for all of the negative things that were surrounding Kraft, Heinz, there was so much good going on that that's the story we chose to towel. And then we did a couple of different things where we got our employees really involved in sharing those stories. So we were able to amplify that messaging in an organic way in an authentic way, that that really went to counteract some of maybe the negative perception that that candidates may have had about Kraft Heinz.

Kenneth Kinney 7:51

So now you're working for a global law firm, talking about what that transition has been like and sort of wrapping your arms around a large law firm that is obviously recruiting, you know, the world needs more lawyers, so?

Elizabeth Vassolo 8:05

Well, well, it's interesting, because it's fundamentally the discipline, from what from how I approached my work at Kraft Heinz to how I'm approaching my work here, the discipline is exactly the same. So what we're doing is we're looking at, we're looking at who our ideal candidate is, we're trying to understand what they want. And we're trying to build that messaging that bridges that gap. And then with that messaging, we want to make sure that we have a consistent presence. And we have a consistent really flow of information and storytelling that reflects that messaging. Now, within each space, you know, CPG versus professional services, the way that you go to market is a little bit different. And that's just a tactical thing. So we at Kraft, Heinz, we were hiring in such volume, so we had to approach things differently. Whereas at a law firm, the volume is significantly smaller, and you're dealing with, especially in the university space, you're dealing with an entirely different recruiting cycle. So there's certain things that that from a tactical point of view, you need to be mindful of, but the actual building the program, figuring out the messaging and and using your employees to amplify it is essentially the same across all industries.

Kenneth Kinney 9:25

So I don't know this. I mean, obviously, every company really generally tends to have some focus on recruiting at the university level today, looking at that long term play, but with a law firm, are you Are you actively recruiting people that are maybe mid career like you would think in a lot of other roles?

Elizabeth Vassolo 9:45

Absolutely, absolutely. So in the in the professional service, specifically law firm, industry, you've got, you've got your your graduates, you've got your young associates, you've got your laterals, which are a seasoned lawyer. yours that may have been partners at other firms, and they're making a lateral move to a new firm. And then you have a whole team of professional business people that are there to support the work of the lawyers. So again, you're still talking about several different audiences. And then it's all about developing that brighter message that really captures who your, what your organization believes in and who you are as an organization. And then nuancing nuancing, that message for the audience.

Kenneth Kinney 10:31

Talk a little bit of, if you will, about the stories of the people, and really how to craft a story of an employee that helps tell the story for your brand, and then what you should do, or really what you shouldn't do with that story.

Elizabeth Vassolo 10:46

So when we when we think about building a campaign, we really look at messaging pillars. So as you do your research work, and as you do your your discovery work, as you start to develop campaign themes, and you start testing them internally and externally, you start to find major themes that emerge. And then what you want to do is, in my experience, and my my recommendation is, you want to make sure that within each theme, you have an appropriate storytelling engine, whether that is from the employees themselves, whether that is from third party validation, like through PR, so news articles and such. And then whether that's through other other things like events, and different types of thought leadership. So within each of your pillow pillars, you want to make sure that you have, you want to make sure that you have these storytelling elements that every time you talk about your employment brand, it, it connects back to a pillar, and it's there to amplify that message. So when you go to market, you always know Kraft, Heinz stands for these three things when you work there. The law firm stands for these three things when you when you join the company. So it's really about honing in on what those pillars are. And those pillars are really rooted in your differentiation. And so that's what you have to keep thinking about. And you also have to be disciplined in that storytelling, because there's always a lot of great stories in an organization and a lot of great employees. But you want to make sure you're finding the right stories and the right the right nuggets. So it's wonderful, it feels consistent.

Kenneth Kinney 12:26

Yeah, it's I mean, it's almost like a content marketing blade. It's not just the idea of putting something out there, it's got to be the right kind of content. Right?

Elizabeth Vassolo 12:34

That's exactly right.

Kenneth Kinney 12:35

When do you think brands go too far with the stories of the people and what I mean by that is a lot of people that I've talked to over the years are often scared of putting an employee out there used to be that they were worried that person would get recruited. But also I think a lot of people are worried that employee might do something, you know, that gets them themselves in trouble. And then that represents or represents the brand badly, or puts a bad light on that brand?

Elizabeth Vassolo 13:02

Well, I think that when you're identifying employees that you want to feature, you probably have a pretty good understanding of who they are personally, and their performance and their commitment to the organization. So you want to see you want to you want to make sure that you're you're paying, you're being mindful of that when you're selecting employees. Now, if they get recruited based on based on representing your brand, well, then you've probably done a really good job, because that just shows that, you know, your storytelling is is resonating, and that person is, is reflecting your organization in such a positive way that another company wants them. So you're never gonna you're never going to prevent other people from recruiting your your top talent, all you can hope to do as a company is to make sure that you have you have a good enough environment and a good enough culture that they want to stay. And that's also the other side of employment brand. It's not just the external focus, it's the internal component to so you know, when you think about when you think about communication, everything internal is external, everything external is internal. So, you know, if you're talking about your culture externally, and the experience of working there, you need to make sure it matches internally. And if the story is that good, that person might not might not want to leave your organization, but you shouldn't be concerned about that. Because that will that will, that will create some paralysis and then you'll never do anything. So So that's so that's one way to approach it. Did I answer your question? I think there was a follow up.

Kenneth Kinney 14:37

I see. I think the other is the fear of them possibly doing something wrong, getting in trouble and then it becomes a PR issue.

Elizabeth Vassolo 14:46

Again, I think it really goes to it really goes back to really goes back to vetting who what should be the right represent representative of your company. But then on the flip side of that, things happen. You can't control you can't control it. briefings. So you always need to make sure you have your communications team and your PR team aligned with the work that you're doing to to prevent or mitigate any issues like that. I honestly in my career have not come across that where we featured somebody or storytelling and then we find out later they're involved in something nefarious. So I haven't really had that experience. But, you know, if I did, I always make sure that our comms team and our PR team, they're all, they're all ready to go. And they're aware of what we're doing in the employment brand space to make sure that we have all of our bases covered.

Kenneth Kinney 15:40

Talk a little bit about social proofing and what you've seen, you know, in glass doors, the brand, obviously everybody knows, but talking about the value of that and where people are looking for social proofing and making their employment decisions.

Elizabeth Vassolo 15:54

So I would say I would say Glassdoor and LinkedIn are the two or the two most popular places, and they're different functions. Right? So well,

Kenneth Kinney 16:02

there's a different level of complaints to people love to complain on Glassdoor because it doesn't necessarily follow them. LinkedIn, you don't necessarily get people sending like they're on Twitter, talking about it being the worst company in the world if they left there for a bad reason.

Elizabeth Vassolo 16:18

Right? So you're never just like any product, you're never gonna always please everybody. Right? So when you're talking about Glassdoor my approach is to make sure I really loved the response element of Glassdoor. So if somebody leaves a negative review, a couple of things need to happen. I do think it's always a wise idea for an organization to respond to now you might not have the bandwidth to respond to every review, but to actually read the reviews and respond when appropriate, good and bad. And then also to track the themes that you're seeing in the reviews. And it's those themes that you can take internally, to your, your culture team, your comms team. And you can address those themes. And you can say, hey, look, we've got a real problem with this. And we need to address it internally. And we need to craft messaging around it to start to change that perception. So Glassdoor is a strong tool for employers as well, because it gives you insight that you probably wouldn't get otherwise, you would probably not even get it from your engagement interviews that you're doing or your engagement surveys that you're doing. So it is it is a strong tool. Now in terms of in terms of the people that are using it, the potential candidates, they're certainly coming to it to research your company. And it's interesting, because if you have a specific tech stack, you can track if your candidate has gone to your LinkedIn page than your Glassdoor page than your Facebook page. So you can start to see the journey of the research collecting and the research they're doing about your organization and where they're starting and where they're ending up. Glassdoor traditionally, tends to be one of the last platforms they visit, when they typically are completing the interview process or getting ready to go in and meet with the with the company and then afterwards if they get the job or don't get the job. So So Glassdoor tends to be in my experience at the end of the process, whereas LinkedIn and your and your website, and and news and PR tend to be at the front end of it. We'll talk

Kenneth Kinney 18:35

about referrals, then what that means to you on the employment side. I mean, I think most people love to say that with any kind of brand, especially in recruiting referrals are their best sources of candidates.

Elizabeth Vassolo 18:47

Yeah, I think referrals are a great source of candidate but not every referral is going to be a great candidate. So I think it's, it's, it's just being mindful, and being forthright with your culture and what you stand for in a way that is easy for a candidate to understand and easy for a candidate to see themselves in that space. But I do think in terms of pipeline talent, pipeline, referrals are crucially important with that with that pipeline, but again, you know, a referral only gets somebody to the door, you know, to make them come in the door for both parties, you have to make sure that that that they align with with your organizational goals, and then also that you're able to communicate who you are as an organization. So again, what they perceive before they get hired and the experience they have when they're here are the same.

Kenneth Kinney 19:37

Well, whether it's a massive CPG firm or a law firm or anywhere else, how do you sort of design a system that fosters more referrals and more social connections to help build in those kinds of candidates?

Elizabeth Vassolo 19:51

So I am a huge fan of LinkedIn elevate platform, so to me when you can get your employees involved In social amplification, that's number one. Because yeah, because when you're sharing when employees are sharing content that is essentially curated, and it has the right has the right narrative threaded through it, they're sharing that with their audience, and it's gonna get in front of more people than if you just posted on your company page. So I believe I love LinkedIn Elevate, it does, it is a challenge to get it up and running. But once it does, it just starts to, it starts to snowball, and you just start to exponentially see growth. And then you can also track if somebody's engaged with a piece of content. And if you ended up hiring them, so you can start to, you can start to see like a journey, a candidate journey into hiring and based on what content is resonating. So I think that's a really, I think that's a really great tool. But it's it's really about your employees, if you have an engaged workforce, they want to talk about why they work at a company, because everybody wants to work for a great company nobody wants to work for, for a crappy company, you know, you have pride in where you work. So the tools that you can give your employees and the guardrails to do so that's gonna, that's going to be really important for your talent pipeline. The other thing is, I'm a huge fan of paid media as well. So I'm a huge fan of creating content to a specific audience, and putting a budget behind it and serving it up to that audience. So to me, I don't I can't stress enough that whatever you do with your marketing goals, you have to have a paid media element to it, especially in the social space.

Kenneth Kinney 21:37

Great, well, I cannot agree more with you talking about employee engagement, or paid media, but especially employee engagement, which is such a problem, such a huge problem today with all employers, but it can provide such a lift for all kinds of content, you know, whether you've got a podcast that your company does, or commercials or a referral program or anything, it is the most coveted audience that brands often ignore. And I don't understand why

Elizabeth Vassolo 22:09

you said something really interesting that I want to comment on. When you're dealing with a company like a giant CPG, and even an even even a big law firm. everybody that walks through your door, candidates are your customers. So everybody that experiences your brand, from buying the product to experiencing the services to interviewing is engaging and potentially a customer. Or if they're, they might already especially in the Kraft Heinz case, they already probably are a customer, because everybody loves ketchup, right? So that is that is actually an audience growth audience. If you take care of that debt candidate experience, it can really dramatically improve your bottom line, or it can dramatically, you know, negatively affect your bottom line. So that's something to really be mindful of, you know, when you're looking at when you're looking at the candidate experience, you must treat them as if they're, they're your customers or future customers as well, you can't, there can't be a different mindset with dealing with dealing with with candidates. So I wanted to I wanted to, I wanted to just mention that.

Kenneth Kinney 23:19

What have you done from a marketing standpoint, that's helped drive employee engagement other than what we just talked about, which was how important it is, but what have you done? or what have you seen, that's really helped drive employee engagement.

Elizabeth Vassolo 23:32

So a couple different things. If you want employee engagement, you must have your leadership engaged. And it's not just your C suite, it is your hiring managers, it's your people, it's your people, managers, they are the frontline of that engagement. And there's like, I don't know what the statistic is, is that says most people don't leave a company because of the actual job they leave because of the manager. And if you're seeing if you can track I mean, you can track what teams are losing people you can track what the thoughts are on different hiring managers. And that's the first place you need to go is you need to really, you need to really recognize your hiring team and your management team and their skills and growing those skills. The other thing with engagement is that if you're going to ask people to do a survey, you must share the results with them. That transparency is is crucial. And on top of that you need to connect the dots between why you're asking this question and what's gonna what the outcome of that is because nobody likes to do a survey and and not see any, any outcome from it and you hear it in lots of different organizations. So like I did a survey, I don't know what I don't know. I don't know what they do with the information. I haven't seen anything change. And so it's about it's about having your your people managers engaged and, and in having the skills that that make employees that help employees be successful whether It's the emotional intelligence, you know, the soft skills, the real tactical business skills, you need to make sure that you have well rounded people and people managers. But then with the actual survey, you have to be, you have to be transparent. And you have to say, hey, look, we're not perfect, because no company is perfect. And this is how we're going to get better. And that, to me goes a long way with getting your employees engaged when they are part of the solution. I believe you see higher engagement,

Kenneth Kinney 25:28

agreed in, you know, employment, marketing, that type of marketing, it is a microcosm of the entire brand. And I'm so glad that now people are looking at the kinds of content, they're looking at candidates as potential customers, it's it's everything. It's everything that tells you stories, using paid media, I mean, it's just fascinating to me how this has evolved as a business practice itself, other than just putting a job up on monster.com. And waiting for people to come in through CareerBuilder, or anything else. It's just fascinating to me.

Elizabeth Vassolo 26:07

Well, the way I look at it, the way I look at it is, I have a personal motto, how you do one thing is how you do everything. So to me a brand a company, how you treat your customers, how you treat your candidates, how you treat, how you treat the products you create, I mean that how you do that one time is how you do it across the board. And that's what builds the brand. And so that's the philosophy. So I always think of that when when building brands, especially, as you mentioned, you know, employment brand fits under the umbrella of the of the main brand. Well, the main brand, what did they do that so great. And that's what we have to do as well. You know, especially when you look at Kraft, Heinz, the marketing for consumer products at Kraft, Heinz is some of the best in the world they do. They have some of the smartest, sharpest marketing. Well, our employment brand marketing needs to be that way too, right. That's how we have to operate. Your internal communications need to be that way too. Because that's as an organization what we do. And that's something always to keep in mind when you're building out these programs.

Kenneth Kinney 27:13

So you know, one of the things we were talking about earlier, when you look at differentiating the messaging you have, or I say maybe differentiating, aligning the messaging that you have, you can put out a lot of great stories about hiring, and then have a lot of bad stuff come out about a brand crafts, you know, no different with a company that has such a large public profile with their numbers. And it could come out with a law with a law firm or anybody else. But how do you sort of align that messaging to make certain that it's the same because you know, people are going to think what they think about craft, they're not going to take the time to differentiate whether you're a bad employer or a bad company as a whole in people, for example, think of Amazon is a great company all the way around, they've had some problems, they've had some PR problems revolving around their employment, but they've done such a good job of aligning that messaging that it doesn't come out that often considering how large of an employer they are.

Elizabeth Vassolo 28:07

Yeah, it's a narrative control issue. I mean, that's what it comes down to, it comes down to for every negative piece of information that comes out, you need to make sure that you have counter positive information. And then that's what you're, that's what you're putting out there. And sometimes, and I don't want to say this about Kraft Heinz, but, you know, if you do have a company that that is going through something particularly bad or challenged, or, you know, they're in some type of trouble, you can address that. And you can talk about how you're improving. I mean, that is that is a totally, that's a human to human being. We know we're not perfect, but when you you know, especially when you come to like the gender diversity and inclusion questions. There's very few companies that really have have have gender equality and leadership and in those spaces, but it's the commitment to it, that really makes people pay attention, you know, no, no company is perfect in that space. But if you come out and you share what your commitment is, and the things that you're doing to get there, that's compelling. And that can that can potentially, that can potentially, you know, change perception from negative to positive.

Kenneth Kinney 29:21

Yeah, great. So how do you sort of wrap the narrative then, and this kind of goes with something you just talked about with? Whether it's any kind of diversity? Have you seen over the years, the more diversified your employment brand is, the better or harder that it is to recruit people because although you do open up more doors for other people, it can also be sometimes considered a little bit of a social stance that others don't agree with or maybe don't understand. Does that make sense?

Elizabeth Vassolo 29:50

Yeah, and that's something as an organization you have to be okay with, you know, if if somebody is upset about joining a company because they see a particular represent Patient have of, of a group of people that they are uncomfortable with or you know, have a negative perception of, you can't control that, all you can say is, look, we're a company, we believe diversity is important. So instead of telling you that we're going to show you that, and that's the other thing, when you talk about marketing, and especially in the employment brand space, don't tell me that you're gonna, you know, have 50% of your women on your board or, or you really are, you really are mindful of the journey of somebody who identifies as LGBTQ. Show me that, show me that. And that, and that, to me is, is, you know, we're, we're, we're human beings, we have been marketed to our whole lives, we are conditioned for marketing. And so we will naturally respond to it good, bad and ugly. And so that's, that's what we want, be honest with us. And again, if you're not there, from a diversity inclusion perspective, tell me and show me what you're doing to get there. And then also, that is an appealing part that is an appealing thing for candidates as well to join an organization that is actively growing and building something that the candidate believes in. And so that's it, that's, that's also a place that you can start as well as not about who we are right now, but about the potential of who we can be as an organization. And that person having, you know, significant contribution to that.

Kenneth Kinney 31:23

I agree. That was great point. So how are you seeing that employment is now also being used in other forms of messaging that the brand does, to convey? Yeah, I mean, I think that's, you're seeing a lot more of employment stories, if you will, on people's social media, not necessarily in a separate employment group on Facebook. But I mean, you're starting to see the stories of people a lot more prevalent, and it has been for a few years, but you know, what your employees are doing either in the community or how you hire them, or what their backstory is, and where that's being delivered? As well as here's an offer or a coupon for Kraft macaroni and cheese. I'm making that up. But we're starting to see a lot more of that.

Elizabeth Vassolo 32:05

Yeah, and I think, I think companies can no longer be good at one thing and on and be good at something to the detriment of something else. Right. So So for me, the way I look at how employment brand works inside of a company is that I feel like I am the liaison between the University Relations group I liaison between the diversity and inclusion between if there's a cultural group between internal comms between PR. So for me, employment brand isn't a separate thing. It's tying together everything that's happening in an organization and communicating that and being the being the through line through all of that messaging. So for example, if you do internal communication, I want the employment brand messaging to be threaded through what's happening in internal comms, I don't want there to be an internal internal comms team and an employment brand team, I want employment brand to be the underpinning, and the sensibility and lens that we look at all of our other all of our other initiatives through because without it, then you don't have that message amplification. And it doesn't, it doesn't work. So, you know, again, if you go back to the idea of creating your pillars, when you talk to your audience, your internal audience, your your current employees, you roll in those pillars as well. You know, when you're talking through your diversity, you're supporting your diversity and inclusion initiative, you're flowing through those pillars as well. So the messaging feels organic, and it becomes part of the vocabulary. And that is really important, too. So, you know, I look at I feel like within a company, I have so many stakeholders, and it's my job to unite everybody and give them the language to do so.

Kenneth Kinney 33:55

What do you think is the most important I'm gonna kind of borrow of features and benefits? The bad thing that we do too much in marketing is talking about that, but what is the most important part of the marketing puzzle that goes towards employee branding? And the reason I kind of us that Pong is, is it benefits? Is it the work life balance? Is it other conditions? Is it nap pods? And ping pong tables? You know, what do you see as your most important asset that you can have to tell a marketing story as part of an employer's brand?

Elizabeth Vassolo 34:31

So couple a couple different things it doesn't come down to it doesn't come down to a particular benefit that you're offering. What it comes down to is it goes back to my my comment about us being consumers born and bred. Whatever story you're telling make it interesting and compelling and attention getting. That's the other thing that I see that I see companies struggle with is that they're talking about their employment brand, but it's so boring. I mean, in terms of internal Have not maybe not the content, maybe it hasn't even the content. And then it's also not rooted in a bigger in a bigger messaging platform. So you're not even sure how to respond to it. So for me, it's really about, you know, you, you build your campaign, you take data, and then you do logic and magic with it. Right. So you, you start from a really core foundational research component, and then you add the marketing magic on it. And you can't forget the marketing magic, because that's how we respond as humans to messaging. I mean, you got to get my attention. So to me, and a lot of times as this, as this particular marketing function is evolving, a lot of times it was being it was being supported by HR and HR was like, well, we're not marketing people. What, how do we share this? Well, now you're starting to see marketing, really get involved in that messaging and crafting and that's why that's where you're gonna see employment, different companies, employment brands, you know, start bubbling to the top as being examples of how to do it right. The other thing I want to comment as well is that when you're thinking of employment brand, and you're talking about external versus internal, keep this in mind when you're thinking internal, you have to re recruit your employees every day. So, you know, it's not enough to just be focused on candidates, you have to make sure that your employment brand messaging is hitting internally in exactly the same compelling, exciting way, that it's hitting externally. Because you need to make me come to work every day. And that's, that's the job of employment brands,

Kenneth Kinney 36:35

whether it's necessarily a good thing or not for brands to deal with. They've got to deal with it. It's, you know, we're it's such an economy. I wish it was that way, when the economy was tough. I think people forget this. But even if you're not just recruiting somebody to a job to start just getting them engaged on and how they help you on social or the productivity they do could not agree more. And this is, you know, it's another reason why, you know, we talked because we were going to, you know, months and months ago, because we were both going to speak at a conference in it often. That's a that's a homerun message right there. So, Elizabeth, you're on a shark's perspective. What is your favorite kind of shark and why?

Elizabeth Vassolo 37:17

Oh, gosh, I would have to say great way. 100% Thank you. 100%. Yeah,

Kenneth Kinney 37:21

good. Good answer there. The

Elizabeth Vassolo 37:23

SEC is the sexiest Apex they breached they have great mouths. I mean, what's not to love

Kenneth Kinney 37:29

a hello? I mean, I hear the same thing about me all the time. Other than other than breaching out of the water but So Elizabeth, it's that time of my show. Are you ready for the five most interesting and important questions that you're going to be asked today? Sure. All right, here we go. Number one, craft traditional macaroni and cheese or shells and cheese.

Elizabeth Vassolo 37:52

Oh gosh. shells and cheese I think shells are better delivery option.

Kenneth Kinney 37:58

Okay, fair enough. And you're on your own show talking about the ocean and sharks so yeah, shells on the beach. But alright, number two, you're in the Chicagoland area where there are not a lot of sharks but Willis Tower or the John Hancock Building. Oh, John Hancock 100%. Best? Yeah, all right. You work for a law firm now. So law firm movies or law your movies To Kill a Mockingbird or my cousin Vinnie.

Elizabeth Vassolo 38:27

Oh, that's hard. I have a theatre background and I performed in To Kill a Mockingbird. That, but love Marisa Tomi. So that's a toss up for me. Sorry,

Kenneth Kinney 38:37

you got to pick one or the other. It's Atticus Finch or Marissa.

Elizabeth Vassolo 38:40

I'm gonna say my cousin Vinnie. Okay, fair

Kenneth Kinney 38:43

enough. Number four, KoolAid or jello?

Elizabeth Vassolo 38:48

Oh, cool. Lane. Cherry.

Kenneth Kinney 38:49

Always cherry. Nice. Number five. And the most important question you're gonna be asked today is biscuits or cornbread. Oh, biscuits. Why so?

Elizabeth Vassolo 39:00

I would say biscuits handled toppings better than cornbread? Does?

Kenneth Kinney 39:03

Good answer. All right, Elizabeth. Where do people find out more about you follow your thought leadership following on LinkedIn or any other social channel. See where you're speaking and more?

Elizabeth Vassolo 39:13

Yeah, LinkedIn and please reach out because I I'm a very active LinkedIn user and I love to connect with people in the in this space and I always love. I always love to be helpful. I strive to be a super connector.

Kenneth Kinney 39:25

i Perfect. Elizabeth. Thank you again for being with us today on A Shark's Perspective.

Elizabeth Vassolo 39:30

Thank you!

[music]

Kenneth Kinney 39:38

So that was my conversation with Elizabeth Vassolo, the head of Global Employment, Brandon McDermott Will and Emery, a global law firm and the former head of employer brand marketing at the Kraft Heinz Company. Let's take a look at three key takeaways from a conversation with her.

Kenneth Kinney 39:51

First do not forget whether you're a company big or small to focus on the employee experience, whether that's bringing them in the door or keeping them for recruiters, your employee Your Branding should be human focused. And there are so many storytelling opportunities and great ones to tell for any brand. Look, if you're not the gazillion dollar sexy tech brand, a great equalizer and competing against these top brands. And I speak from a lot experience in this, the great equalizer is the actual people and their stories, and how you tell those stories. And this is also one of the most opportune times to differentiate your brand's message of who you are, and what makes you different by how you tell those stories. Your people are your stories, they may come from another employer or someday go to that gazillion dollar tech brand, but how you help tell their stories and how they fit in with you as a brand. Well, it can be a very powerful message of your own to tell and don't just devote all of this attention when recruiting. One of my favorite quotes ever was when she said you have to recruit your employees every day. And that is so very, very true. Whether you want to hire them or keep them providing an amazing experience in telling their stories is crucial.

Kenneth Kinney 40:57

Second, so do you need marketing as part of your HR department? Absolutely. You need it in every department, not just so that marketing can have an influence. But just as much so that the department can help the marketer understand and better reflect that as well to the rest of the world. It's freaking competitive out there. So take advantage of a marketing strategy. It cannot fix everything. But it should be able to help amplify and package if you will, the reality of the company and the positive stories that are rooted in reality. And it's not just every story, it's about finding the right ones that point back to a central message that helps tell that brand's bigger story. And the diversity and inclusion is such a hot topic right now. So as caused marketing, just don't fail in this please, I get highly discouraged by so many brands, putting diversity for example, as a marketing ploy, it's got to be real top to bottom it should be authentic with who you are and who your people are. So don't over package and put too much marketing spend, especially on what it is if it's not real, we can and we should drive change. Just understand what kind of vehicle you're driving. You don't want your employees or customers buying something that really isn't what it is.

Kenneth Kinney 41:59

Third, your best influencers are your employees. And employee engagement is still one of the most important tools your you'll ever have in your toolkit, yet it remains so incredibly underutilized and misunderstood for so many businesses. As a marketer, figure out what makes your employees tick, what stories they want to tell. It's not necessarily the stories you think if they want to tell, take the foot off the gas or the brand babble. And remember that employee engagement is not some campaign idea. From top to bottom, your leadership has to be involved at every level. We waste so much time packaging it like it's a campaign but no company is perfect. be imperfect, just be authentic. Look, I failed as a manager with my people on many occasions too. So I've learned these lessons the hard way, but I continue to see even more managers and companies fall flat on their faces with is so much worse today.

Kenneth Kinney 42:46

Got a question? Send me an email to Kenneth at a shark's perspective.com.

Kenneth Kinney 42:51

Thank you again for the privilege of your time.

Kenneth Kinney 42:52

Now go and find some work that you love that isn't a job and join us on the next episode of A Shark's Perspective.

(Music - shark theme)